Name and shame

[Audrey]

In the hopes that we can now put this to bed, just two small points.


Ronan - Option 4 - debate it with people on AAM - it's a free country.

You're right - there's nothing you can do about it and nobody else can do anything about it. However, what we can "do" about it is not the only question - that's all I'm saying. We can actually think beyond the "do".

Clubman - what's wrong with "subjective and dependent upon the individual's value system...."? Yes, I am supplementing with my own views on morality - what's wrong with that? I didn't assume that others adhere to the same codes of morality/values as I do. I simply expressed mine, and expressed a view that we're losing sight of something in society if we lose sight of moral issues.

That's all! Over and under! Tally ho! [Are you still there - original poster??

 

[DrMoriarty]

Whaddya mean, 'spree'?!? What evidence can you adduce in support of this scandalous allegation, Clubman?

 

[Markjbloggs]

Hold on there a minute, Ronan, firstly, I did not log on here to complain about being ripped off - I logged on here to ask if there was a way of publicising the dishonest practices of a shopkeeper. I accept that I was not vigilant, but that does not detract from the fact that this was theft from me by a shopkeeper, who will, regardless of me complaining or not, will do the same to others.

Secondly, the inconvenience of getting on a bus and going into Dublin again mitigates against going back and complaining. A more effective way for me "to get my own back" would have been a forum to bring this to others attention.


Learn to properly read posts before you go off ranting about your won agenda.

And the problem in this situation, is that the customer who had the problem, thought it better to log in to a discussion forum to complain about the problems he's had, rather than going back into the shop to detail his concerns, explain what he might expect to happen to resolve the situation, and allow the shop the right of reply.

So, the shop in question, while having a very unhappy customer on their hands, doesn't know about it. Businesses can't address customer dissatisfaction if they don't know that their customers are dissatisfied.

They may have been genuine mistakes that have caused the customer to be unhappy, but having not been told about it, they can't action on it at all.

And I would say now that there is no point complaining at this stage, well, maybe about the out of date food, but definitely not about the alleged intentional short changing. The most effective way of complaining is in person, and as soon as possible after the event.

 

[ClubMan]

Clubman - what's wrong with "subjective and dependent upon the individual's value system...."? Yes, I am supplementing with my own views on morality - what's wrong with that?

I never said that there was anything wrong with it.

I didn't assume that others adhere to the same codes of morality/values as I do. I simply expressed mine, and expressed a view that we're losing sight of something in society if we lose sight of moral issues.

By expressing your view on "morality" thus:

My point was in relation to morality ... caring, human kindness, decency. Must we reduce everything to two levels - legal or illegal? Black or white? Why not moral or immoral? Are you familiar with these words?

and asking if another contributor is familiar with "these words ['moral' and 'immoral']" it seems to me that you are assuming that the values that you hold in this context are in common or even universal currency.

Hold on there a minute, Ronan, firstly, I did not log on here to complain about being ripped off - I logged on here to ask if there was a way of publicising the dishonest practices of a shopkeeper.

Yes - and several people including myself have suggested practical steps that you can take in this regard including contacting the shop itself to complain and/or various statutory and other agencies such as the FSAI, ODCA, CAI, local health inspector etc. In fact, if you feel that your money was stolen by being deliberately short changed then you could also contact the Gardaí. In spite of such constructive suggestions it seems that you and a few others are still not happy with the responses given for some reason...

 

[Humpback]

but that does not detract from the fact that this was theft from me by a shopkeeper, who will, regardless of me complaining or not, will do the same to others.

Your original comment was slightly less forceful and definitive.

Not alone that, but the shop assistant short changed me - I discovered this when i got to the bus stop and I am almost certain she did it deliberately.

Are you now suggesting that the shopkeeper mentioned in the first quote has it as his policy and training for the shop assistant mentioned in your original quote to routinely short change customers in order to make money?

If you believe this to be the case, I would (as suggested by ClubMan) most definitely report this to the Gardai. This is fraud or something, has to be. I can smell a Tribunal in the offing here.

Secondly, the inconvenience of getting on a bus and going into Dublin again mitigates against going back and complaining. A more effective way for me "to get my own back" would have been a forum to bring this to others attention.

"Getting my own back". I find this a curious way to put this. To me it makes a lie of your previous comments with regards to being on the look out for other consumers who may also end up buying stale produce. Strikes me as pure self interest more than anything else, for them catching you out in the way that they did.

With regards to getting on the bus, could you instead make a phone call? Send a letter? Send an e-mail? Do all three?

Learn to properly read posts before you go off ranting about your won agenda.

I read your post. I've read it again. You started off by complaining, and then asked how you could get your own back.

If you were legitimately concerned for consumer welfare fair enough, but since you're only concerned with getting your own back, I'm even less inclined to be concerned about your plight.

 

[Bamhan]

ronan d John please stop I am getting funny looks here for laughing while I should be carrying out some routine work at my PC./.....

 

[Markjbloggs]

I did not make it clear so far that I do appreciate that you and others have satisfactorily answered my original question, ie a recourse for being ripped-off - thanks for that, I will follow up accordingly.

As for Ronan, keep taking the XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.... Talk about a pi**ing contest,

Yes - and several people including myself have suggested practical steps that you can take in this regard including contacting the shop itself to complain and/or various statutory and other agencies such as the FSAI, ODCA, CAI, local health inspector etc. In fact, if you feel that your money was stolen by being deliberately short changed then you could also contact the Gardaí. In spite of such constructive suggestions it seems that you and a few others are still not happy with the responses given for some reason...

 

[ClubMan]

I did not make it clear so far that I do appreciate that you and others have satisfactorily answered my original question, ie a recourse for being ripped-off - thanks for that, I will follow up accordingly.

Fair enough - Pal!

 

[DrMoriarty]

Can't believe this one is still 'running'...

Markjbloggs — look, for what it's worth, I suspect most of us actually can sympathise, perhaps more than we're letting on here. Nobody likes being swizzed, and especially not by the kind of money-grubbing, over-charging, price-fixing, mis-labelling, corner-cutting, penny-pinching, tax-fiddling, slave-driving, minimum-wage-paying, PD-voting, BMW-driving 'hoors' that seem to populate the small retailer sector.

That caricature - like all myths - is partly grounded in reality. But for every shopkeeper that fits that description, there are also plenty of honest-dealing, hard-working, community-serving individuals in the same business. I don't complain that they charge more than the supermarkets; I just avoid buying anything from them that isn't urgently needed. As for the first kind — and I know a few — I won't buy so much as a box of matches from them. I haven't set foot in my local Spar for eight years, following a petty dispute over an incident a bit like the one you originally described... (and which I reported, to absolutely zero effect, unfortunately.) And if my wife & kids have followed my urging, the guy has probably lost a couple of grand's worth of custom over the years. That's how you 'get even'...

No matter where you shop, always check the sell-by date (where applicable) and count your change. 'Bad' retailers, as someone pointed out above, only get away with sharp practice because Joe/Jill Soap lets them.

 

[daltonr]

I've recently found Dublin city to be almost empty on Saturdays.
I had presumed it was the Shopping Center effect kicking in. But last Saturday I did notice things were very very busy. Perhaps the overpriced shopping center effect driving people back????

>It's not clear that the second point is actually the case. If it was the
>"best before" date and not the "use by" date that had expired

I don't know of any food where the Use By date would be 5 Months after the Best Before date. But I'm not that well up on Shelf Life so someone can correct me.

Would agree with Rainyday that naming and Shaming on AAM isn't a good idea as it is anonymous. Nothing would stop competitors naming and shaming each other with no foundation.

If the food genuinely was out of date then certainly tell your friends to be careful when shopping there. Mention it to the manager in a friendly way and see how he/she reacts.

As for change. I used to be pretty bad at checking change, I'm getting better at it. My policy on that is that if you only notice it after leaving the shop then there's no use in complaining. Hopefully it was a small amount and if so it's a small price to pay for a valuable lesson.

My worst experience with incorrect change was in a certain Cinema that will remain Nameless, but it wasn't in Dublin. I paid with a £20 Note but only received change as if I had paid with a £10. I pointed it out there and then and was told I had paid with a £10. I had just taken the cash from an ATM so I know how much it was.

After arguing for a few minutes I was told to come back after the film and they'd have counted the Till. When I came back they told me the Till Balanced, Still claiming I hadn't been shortchanged.

So complaining there and then doesn't always work. In that situation withdrawing your custom and spreading the word is the only avenue left.
BTW the Cinema Manager was the guy behind the Till.

I've also been given too much change in my time. I usually own up and set them straight. But I was delighted to get a 70c bonus last week at a StatOil Garage because the girl behind the counter was on her mobile talking about the previous nights events.

Incidently this week is national Customer Service Week.
If that kind of thin turns you on.
http://www.customerserviceweek.com/

Seems to have started in America but I heard it being discussed on Morning Ireland this week. Strange how we take America's Celebration of Customer Service, but not the Customer Service itself.

-Rd

 

[tall chapy]

SteelBlue05 is not a moderator. We've dealt with this accusation thoroughly in the past so let's not rehash it here. Suffice to say that if you think that moderators (such as myself and RainyDay) habitually or automatically back each other up or agree with each other on all matters then you are sorely mistaken and have not been paying attention over the years.

At what point did I say that non-moderators don't back you.(You need to pay attention !!) There are more forum members, than moderators so by the law of averages you will always get more non-moderators agreeing with what ever point you are raising whether it be right or wrong.

So its an accusation !!! LOL
Upping the ante ??
So are you denying that you have never been backed up by a moderator in the past and remember "habitually or automatically" are your insinuations not mine !
Throughly dealt with in the past, where ??

You and others are perfectly entitled to your opinion but it doesn't prove anything in terms of my "manner" being the problem. Probably as many people that have had problems in this respect have complimented me and others for adopting a challenging and fact based approach to queries and discussions. Differences of opinions are a symptom of a healthy debating environment in my view.

and you do not disprove my opinion neither, as it is different things to different people as this thread is also proving and I do agree that differences of opinions are a symptom of a healthy debating environment . But then there is goading of the Ronan_d_John intermingled with debate. Telling people that they are gullible,stupid,sucker and insinuated that he was a 'fool' adds nothing to a real debate.

You were a gullible shopper

acted stupidly

you're actually the first "sucker"

As I've said before here, "a fool and their money are easily parted".

Would be more suitable now to name and shame yourself rather than blaming anyone else.

As I said before we should be encouraging people to join the forum and not winding them up.

Quote:
I was extremely disappointed in the way the thread (link above)went so low, in all the years I am on this board, I have never seen it sink that low !! Unfortunately, Brendan closed the thread, before I was able to reply.

Are you insinuating that I personally dragged that thread "low" or something? Feel free to back this up if that's what you're insinuating.

If I was insinuating that you personally dragged the thread 'low'. Then surely my Quote above would have said "I was extremely disappointed in the way you dragged the the thread so low".
If you wish to up the ante more and since we must adopt a ' challenging and fact based cross examination approach !!! Do you deny any hand in dragging it 'low'..we could play this game forever. We could call witnesses for the prosecution !! especially since everything is dragged down to legal and illegal and having 'the advantage of being objective measures of acceptability or otherwsise as determined by the society/state in which we live'. Whom amomgst this 'courtroom forum' is a solicitor or barrister and as you freely admit

I certainly don't have any legal background

and upping the ante with your reply, you are only moving this thread towards being closed and proving my original point. When people come on to the forum they do not want a challenging, fact based cross examination in the witness box, they will want there bona fides accepted up front.
Depending on the debate it maybe appropriate, but for a incident of purchasing out of date food and being short changed !!!

A person that starts a thread, should not have to explain themselves, except if it is complicated. Asking someone to justify their actions will only wind things up !! We should be encouraging people to join the forum.

Who asked anybody to justify their actions?

Maybe I should have changed it to justifying their inaction

• "why did you not check the best before dates and your change at the time? "
• "Have you complained to the shop after the fact and, if so, how did they respond? "
• "What sort of things were you looking for that you could only find 3 of the 8 items in Dublin city centre? "

Quote:
Compare Clubman's response with DrMoriarty.
Why? I said more or less the same thing among other things too. Why expect everybody to adhere to what you consider acceptable standards of contribution? As long as the contributions are withing the posting guidelines and relevant/constructive/helpful they are acceptable in my view.

and vice versa, I dont expect everyone to adhere to what you consider acceptable standards of contribution . I asked people to compare and make up their own mind. I did not demand or ask that they agree with me.

Quote:
Its like a new member joining, coming on and saying they were mugged late at night and Clubman asking what were you doing out so late or walking in that area !!
No it's not. That's another completely hypothetical and irrelevant issue/

I was going to start a with a Pantomine reply...but I agree with you it is hypothetical..

Quote:
I have to admit that Clubman has given excellent advice in the past, but 2 'rights' does not justify 1 'wrong' and vice versa.
What "wrong"? What specific parts of my contributions above do you consider inappropriate or irrelevant? As far as I can see I have posted several pieces of very relevant information along with some opinions and questions about the specific situation in question. Where's the problem?

Ok, this one maybe I need to clarify,'wrong' was probably the wrong word.
It was more in response to Rainyday,What I was trying to say was that you have given tons of good advice before, but your 'style' of cross-examination negates some of your good work IMHO.

Just thinking...LOL (In a nice way..)
Must all products (ie: two jars of olives ) have a "best before" date and a "use by" date. Otherwise when would you know when it is unsafe to eat.

 

[ClubMan]

At what point did I say that non-moderators don't back you.

And where did I say that?

So are you denying that you have never been backed up by a moderator in the past...

No. Just as I have been backed up by other contributors too. And criticised or challenged by both moderators and other contributors in my time. And censured/censored by moderators the odd time. Basically I have been treated the same way that any other genuine contributor has been treated. Neither I nor any of the other moderators get preferential treatment. But your reference here to the "the auld moderator calvary, riding to the rescue again" seems to me to be some sort of insinuation that this sort of backup occurs as a matter of course (habitually or automatically if you like) and seems to be a reference to a previous "moderators circle the wagons" thread a while back which somebody (perhaps you? I can't remember) started in order to attack the moderation policy of the site and undermine the moderators in general, and myself and RainyDay in particular, and which Brendan eventually removed.

Throughly dealt with in the past, where ??

We have had several threads which started out or ended up discussing the whole "ClubMan's tone" (q.v.) issue and I have always dealt with the accusations and criticisms directly. I don't expect people to agree with or like all of my posts and I am not immune to transgressing the posting guidelines from time to time (as I mentioned earlier) but I don't think that my "tone" is a problem or that I regularly or deliberately flout the posting guidelines or cause a nuisance of myself on the site.

But then there is goading of the Ronan_d_John intermingled with debate. Telling people that they are gullible,stupid,sucker and insinuated that he was a 'fool' adds nothing to a real debate.

None of the extracts that you quote above at this point were mine. Please don't try to misrepresent my contribution to this thread. It would be fairer if you used the vBulletin quote facility to properly attribute quotations to their originators instead of making it look like somebody said something that they did not.

As I said before we should be encouraging people to join the forum and not winding them up. [broken link removed]

You quote posting guideline 11 and yet I have not posted uncivil comments or attacked any other poster. Maybe you can explain yourself?

Do you deny any hand in dragging it 'low'..

Yes.

We could call witnesses for the prosecution !! especially since everything is dragged down to legal and illegal and having 'the advantage of being objective measures of acceptability or otherwsise as determined by the society/state in which we live'. Whom amomgst this 'courtroom forum' is a solicitor or barrister and as you freely admit

I don't get your point here but if you don't like my comments/posts then feel free to ignore them. I'm sure that many others manage to do this without undue hardship. Just read read the posts that you like or agree with and maybe you'll feel better.

and upping the ante with your reply

What is all this talk of upping the ante about? Upping the ante how!? Somebody wondered if I had some sort of legal background and I simply clarified that I did not. You seem a bit more fixated on it than merits such as passing comment though. Not sure why to be honest.

you are only moving this thread towards being closed and proving my original point.

How am I moving the thread towards being closed? Even if I say so myself, far from moving this thread towards closure I have made some quite constructive suggestions during this thread. Unfortunately responding to misplaced criticisms such as yours is obfuscating the thread and distracting from its original purpose. If such criticisms were posted in their own thread then everybody would be better off. I did also suggest this earlier.

When people come on to the forum they do not want a challenging, fact based cross examination in the witness box, they will want there bona fides accepted up front.

Where did I not accept the bona fides of the original poster?

Depending on the debate it maybe appropriate, but for a incident of purchasing out of date food and being short changed !!!

Your opinion. Many others have taken part in this discussion without raising the objections and concerns that you have. Even the original poster has thanked me and others for practical, constructive suggestions in relation to the original query/comment. Have you made any?

Maybe I should have changed it to justifying their inaction

I simply asked a few questions of the original poster in an attempt to clarify some of the issues at the time and subsequently. I was not asking them to justify themselves. And they were free to ignore the questions if they so chose.

• "why did you not check the best before dates and your change at the time? "
• "Have you complained to the shop after the fact and, if so, how did they respond? "
• "What sort of things were you looking for that you could only find 3 of the 8 items in Dublin city centre? "

What's your problem with those questions? Note also that they were prefixed with "no offence but" just in case the infamous "tone" is blamed as the problem (yet again).

and vice versa, I dont expect everyone to adhere to what you consider acceptable standards of contribution . I asked people to compare and make up their own mind. I did not demand or ask that they agree with me.

Neither did I...

I was going to start a with a Pantomine reply...but I agree with you it is hypothetical..

And irrelevant?

Ok, this one maybe I need to clarify,'wrong' was probably the wrong word.

So that's yet another inappropriately chosen word? Maybe you should be more careful when you dash off a post criticising another contributor.

It was more in response to Rainyday,

So why did you say "I have to admit that Clubman has given excellent advice in the past, but 2 'rights' does not justify 1 'wrong' and vice versa."? That's clearly directed at me and yet you admit that there was no 'wrong' in the first place. So there are only 'rights'. Thanks goodness my reputation has survived intact in the face of your sustained criticism.

What I was trying to say was that you have given tons of good advice before, but your 'style' of cross-examination negates some of your good work IMHO.

Yes - in your humble opinion. Many others disagree with your analysis. Obviously I do.

Must all products (ie: two jars of olives ) have a "best before" date and a "use by" date. Otherwise when would you know when it is unsafe to eat.

Perhaps if you did something constructive in the context of this thread for a change and researched the topic/legislation you could inform us. So far you have posted a lot of text but little or nothing by way of constructive input to this thread. I think that fact speaks for itself and puts your criticism of me and others on issues of style, delivery and content in context.

 

[GreatDane]

Just in case there's any confusion, I was not the "official" involved in this incident and this is the first that I've heard of it.

Hi

Very true indeed, sorry Clubman, there was no intention to suggest you were the person involved in that incident.


Regards


G>
http://www.rpoints.com/newbie

 

[tiger]

God, people here seem to have alot of time on their hands. I've handed in my notice and finish my job tomorrow. What's everyone else's excuse?

 

[tall chapy]

No. Just as I have been backed up by other contributors too. And criticised or challenged by both moderators and other contributors in my time. And censured/censored by moderators the odd time. Basically I have been treated the same way that any other genuine contributor has been treated. Neither I nor any of the other moderators get preferential treatment. But your reference here to the "the auld moderator calvary, riding to the rescue again" seems to me to be some sort of insinuation that this sort of backup occurs as a matter of course (habitually or automatically if you like) and seems to be a reference to a previous "moderators circle the wagons" thread a while back which somebody (perhaps you? I can't remember) started in order to attack the moderation policy of the site and undermine the moderators in general, and myself and RainyDay in particular, and which Brendan eventually removed.

I am sure moderators have criticised, challenged, censured and censored some of your replies. But when your 'tone' is not appreciated, it is usually, a moderator that replies. As for the last bit about 'undermining the moderators in general' are you accusing me or not, make up your mind.

We have had several threads which started out or ended up discussing the whole "ClubMan's tone" (q.v.) issue and I have always dealt with the accusations and criticisms directly. I don't expect people to agree with or like all of my posts and I am not immune to transgressing the posting guidelines from time to time (as I mentioned earlier) but I don't think that my "tone" is a problem or that I regularly or deliberately flout the posting guidelines or cause a nuisance of myself on the site.

Dealt with before...This has not been dealt with in the past.
You do always deal with the accusations and criticisms directly. This only means that they have been debated and not dealt with. I have no agenda or desire to have you censured or removed from this forum.
Some people disagree with your cross examination of posters in this forum and some people don't.

Quote:
But then there is goading of the Ronan_d_John intermingled with debate. Telling people that they are gullible,stupid,sucker and insinuated that he was a 'fool' adds nothing to a real debate.

None of the extracts that you quote above at this point were mine. Please don't try to misrepresent my contribution to this thread. It would be fairer if you used the vBulletin quote facility to properly attribute quotations to their originators instead of making it look like somebody said something that they did not./QUOTE]
I stated clearly who said what and as for Misrepresentation look in the mirror on this one.

Quote:
As I said before we should be encouraging people to join the forum and not winding them up. [broken link removed]

You quote posting guideline 11 and yet I have not posted uncivil comments or attacked any other poster. Maybe you can explain yourself?

As above , I do not accuse you of any uncivil comments or of attacking any poster. Though being a administrator, would you call the 'uncivil comments' a breach of guidelines ??

How am I moving the thread towards being closed? Even if I say so myself, far from moving this thread towards closure I have made some quite constructive suggestions during this thread. Unfortunately responding to misplaced criticisms such as yours is obfuscating the thread and distracting from its original purpose. If such criticisms were posted in their own thread then everybody would be better off. I did also suggest this earlier.

By your style of cross examination of the poster.Some may feel that this ok and others don't. This small matter has attracted nearly 60 replies, with many drifting away from the original thread. Misplaced criticism is subjective. As for 'your own' personal thread, very noble, but not practicable

Where did I not accept the bona fides of the original poster?

IMHO by cross examining his statements.

Your opinion. Many others have taken part in this discussion without raising the objections and concerns that you have. Even the original poster has thanked me and others for practical, constructive suggestions in relation to the original query/comment. Have you made any?

"go back to the shop and see what their response is and if they do not treat you fairly, name and shame..."

I simply asked a few questions of the original poster in an attempt to clarify some of the issues at the time and subsequently. I was not asking them to justify themselves. And they were free to ignore the questions if they so chose.

obviously, we are free to ignore the questions, but that removes the debate ?

So far you have posted a lot of text but little or nothing by way of constructive input to this thread. I think that fact speaks for itself and puts your criticism of me and others on issues of style, delivery and content in context.

I think if you count the text you will find that you posted a lot more text than me. You version of a constructive input is definately different than mine. You have suggested many things. Some practical, some no one can take seriously, like going to the Gardai about being short changed.

if you feel that your money was stolen by being deliberately short changed then you could also contact the Gardaí.

You honestly believe the Gardai would take him seriously !!

As for suggesting the original poster join a consumer advocacy group.

If you are interested in protecting the consumer in general and not just dealing with your own issues then you could join the Consumers' Association or some other consumer oriented lobby or representative group.

This real style, delivery and content in context.LOL - good night

 

[ClubMan]

My suggestion about contacting the Gardai if he thought that he had been short changed was indeed serious. He never mentioned how much was involved but if it was a large sum then this would be merited. Another poster also seconded this suggestion.

And the suggestions about joining advocacy groups were also made in earnest since the issue of warning other consumers cropped up as an issue during the discussion.

Basically this all seems to boil down to one substantive point - some people (including you, it seems) have problems with my tone/style/delivery while others don't. So be it I guess. That's life and we'll all just have to live with it.

I think we've done this issue to death yet again.

 

[extopia]

Boring, boring..

ZZZZZZZZZZZZ. (Snore)

 

[ClubMan]

So boring that you had to post about it?

 

[extopia]

Sorry - I won't be drawn into this one. Over and out.

 

[Audrey]

Oh dear Clubman - you really do have a problem. Get a life!!
Oh and (of course) we'll all be expecting you to respond to THIS post because you simply must have the last word, mustn't you!! Go on .. prove it.

So boring that you had to post about it?