lisbon vote

[michaelm]

I have no interest in trying to point score against you, or anyone.

I don’t want to give anyone the impression that we have a large European Gun (which doesn’t affect our neutrality) pointing at our heads…but…

But you go on to give the impression that we have a large European Gun pointing at our heads.

However, if we lose our position in Europe, we lose this selling point.

This is more of it. There is no 'lose our position' in a No. We would remain full EU & Euro members and there would have to be a EU wide debate on the direction of the EU. This would be healthy, as if we're to end up as part of a Federal State then it should be with our eyes open. If Ireland were castigated for a No to Lisbon then the EU leaders would be displaying to other small EU States, and the world, a contempt for democracy and their own rules.

 

[Latrade]

...But you go on to give the impression that we have a large European Gun pointing at our heads....

There is no 'lose our position' in a No. We would remain full EU & Euro members and there would have to be a EU wide debate on the direction of the EU. This would be healthy, as if we're to end up as part of a Federal State then it should be with our eyes open. If Ireland were castigated for a No to Lisbon then the EU leaders would be displaying to other small EU States, and the world, a contempt for democracy and their own rules.

Have we put all the other issues to bed then?

I delivered the Gun to Head with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. I went on the give the impression there was because there's no getting away from the fact that there is a dirty great big gun pointed at our heads. Whether it's loaded, whether it's a bluff or not is another issue.

Europe will change. It has to. If it doesn't, then the existing system may continue to trundle and rattle on in some format, however we are unlikely to see any support for any intiative. We're unlikely to see any assistance too forthcoming when needed (which might be sooner rather than later).

We've enough regard within Europe to make Ireland attractive to investment. Don't understimate the harm that could be caused by Ireland losing that goodwill within Europe over what boils down to extreme fractions misrepresenting the details of the Treaty, people using it to make stick one to the government, or some with their own xenophobic views on Europe.

 

[Ceist Beag]

There is no 'lose our position' in a No. We would remain full EU & Euro members and there would have to be a EU wide debate on the direction of the EU.

michaelm you have made a lot of well argued points but I'm afraid this is not one of them. Anyone who doesn't think Irelands standing in the EU will be damaged by another vote is just kidding themselves. If we had a clear and well reasoned argument as to why we might vote no then this might have some merit in the eyes of the other countries. However we voted no the last time, our elected representatives tried to ascertain why we voted no, they put together a representation to the EU outlining why they felt we voted no as a result, and they achieved what they believe is the best resolution to this from our EU partners. If we vote no again then it is only natural that the other EU countries will be exasperated with us. How do you honestly think future dealings with Irish EU members will go if we vote no - do you honestly think it will be business as usual when we go asking for anything? As far as I'm concerned the message from those on the no side is so mixed and varied that there simply won't be any clear understanding as to why we voted no again, should that be the outcome - and thus our standing will be damaged in the eyes of the rest of Europe.
I'm not as well informed as yourself or LATrade so this is only my gut feel on the matter but I can't see any logic in the argument that a no vote will mean business as usual.

 

[Westie123]

I have no interest in trying to point score against you, or anyone.But you go on to give the impression that we have a large European Gun pointing at our heads.This is more of it. There is no 'lose our position' in a No. We would remain full EU & Euro members and there would have to be a EU wide debate on the direction of the EU. This would be healthy, as if we're to end up as part of a Federal State then it should be with our eyes open. If Ireland were castigated for a No to Lisbon then the EU leaders would be displaying to other small EU States, and the world, a contempt for democracy and their own rules.

It would be my opinion that the EU leaders have already displayed a contempt for democracy by not accepting the result of the 1st Lisbon vote!

 

[michaelm]

Little put to bed. I'll be voting No again, gun to the head, loaded or not.

 

[Caveat]

Out of interest Michael, Lisbon aside, how do you feel about the EEC/EC/EU in general?

 

[michaelm]

Out of interest Michael, Lisbon aside, how do you feel about the EEC/EC/EU in general?

I'm all for a Europe about ease of trade and travel. I'm opposed to a Federal Europe and the further pooling of sovereignty. I don't believe in the EU 'one size fits all' approach. I believe that an Irish government as elected by the Irish people should make law and policy decisions here, those politicians are accountable to the people, subsequent governments can repeal bad laws and reverse bad policy decisions. Currently when an Irish government agrees to something in Europe it becomes set in stone and any future Irish government can do nothing about it.

 

[Yachtie]

I believe that an Irish government as elected by the Irish people should make law and policy decisions here, those politicians are accountable to the people, subsequent governments can repeal bad laws and reverse bad policy decisions.

....as the FF lead govenment demonstrats on a daily basis!

Sorry but above comment really made me laugh!!!

 

[D8Lady]

Was out campaigning today. Many women now firmly in the yes camp, especially older ones.
The very definate nos were mainly younger men and very angry about it as well. Lot of anger in general though by everyone.

Just curious if anyone else has noticed any trends?

 

[Caveat]

Just curious if anyone else has noticed any trends?

Among people I know, the confirmed YES or NO voters are even more resolute, but quite a few have moved from NO to YES - very few have gone the other way.

No obvious demographic.