Junior /Leaving Cert Marking - 10% extra throught the medium of Irish

Do I see any benefit in rewarding the efforts of a pupil to complete examinations in the official language of the state, despite this language being ridiculed, dismissed & even despised by many, whose only unit of measurement appears to be "will it make me a profit?".

Yes.

International business is generally done in English. This doesn't stop German schools teaching German, French schools teaching French, etc etc.
These countries are well able to function as international players and European partners without trying to hide or forget their individuality. Ireland is well able to do the same. Efforts in this regard should be applauded & encouraged, in my view.
 
As has been pointed out there are two official languages in this state. I am not anti the Irish language but the argument that it's harder to learn in Irish dosen't wash with me. It's a free choice. The Nigerian child who comes to Ireland faces at least the same difficulty in learning because they are not learning through their native language.

To me the issue is simple. Two students sit the same exam and the one with an A1 can potentially have actually scored less than another with an A2. As an employer I'd sure like to know that the A1 student is only A1 in say Applied Mathemetics because of an ability to communicate through Irish.

It would be more transparent to set college points levels openly at different settings for the two situations. i.e. Say engineering UCD for English speakers 450 points for Irish 425. It's still discrimination but at least everyone would see it for what it is and my guess is there would be uproar.
 
HighFlier said:
As has been pointed out there are two official languages in this state. I am not anti the Irish language but the argument that it's harder to learn in Irish dosen't wash with me. It's a free choice. The Nigerian child who comes to Ireland faces at least the same difficulty in learning because they are not learning through their native language.

To me the issue is simple. Two students sit the same exam and the one with an A1 can potentially have actually scored less than another with an A2. As an employer I'd sure like to know that the A1 student is only A1 in say Applied Mathemetics because of an ability to communicate through Irish.

It would be more transparent to set college points levels openly at different settings for the two situations. i.e. Say engineering UCD for English speakers 450 points for Irish 425. It's still discrimination but at least everyone would see it for what it is and my guess is there would be uproar.
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Exam papers are not marked by computers, they are marked by individuals who can award different marks to similar answers. I could have the same answer as you but another exam marker will give me one or two more marks than you. This could lead to you getting an A2 and me an A1. Is that fair? No. And I'll revert back to my other reply again, I didnt have a choice as to what shcool I went to, I could give out about it but at the end of the day it was my parents who decided what was best for me and as it turned out Irish school was best.
 
I think you are missing the point. For sure examiners differ but there is no deliberate discrimination and there is an appeals process. In this case a direct decision is made to inflate the marks given in a particular subject simply because of a competency in another subject. It undermines the validity of the whole evaluation. Yes a student can get more marks in Maths by doing it through Irish but it dosen't make him any better at maths.

Students who say go to college abroad with these grades are not as good as their grades suggest and IMO this undermines the reputation of the Irish grading system abroad. I would say it is not well known even in educational circles overseas that this hidden bonus exists.

Don't forget we are the great little country who in the '80s gave all learner drivers a full driving licence with no test to clear a backlog and these self same licences are still used to hire cars all around the world.
Ok...Ok not quite a good analogy but a grading system in a subject should be just that ....it should grade the student in their knowledge of the subject and if the state wants to promote Irish by giving preferential treatment in access to further education and the jobs market then be open about it and give a points "voucher" or something rather than hiding it in the subject gradings. My opinion is if such a system was introduced it would be discounted pretty quickly by the marketplace.
 
Maybe not, but its not education, it's misrepresentation of educational results to implement a wooly cultural policy.
 
Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking

gianni said:
I think the rule that applies is that you get 10% of the marks that you didn't achieve.

e.g. if you got 80% you missed out on 20% so you get 10% of this which would bring your score up to 82%.
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No it would be 10% of 60% which would be 6% i.e. total now 46%.

BTW can anyone clarify if this formula is correct because different posters have suggested different systems.

Anyway even 1% is unfair IMO.
 
To sit an examination paper through Irish requires another level of knowledge and in my opinion that justifies the extra marks.

Whether you are 'lucky enough' to be born in an Irish speaking area or attend a Gaelscoil, well that just life.

The fostering of our national heritage and maintenance of the language is an extra benefit and I would further argue that this alone, is reason enough to allocate the extra marks.
 
SNB said:
To sit an examination paper through Irish requires another level of knowledge and in my opinion that justifies the extra marks. .....................

It requires another level of knowledge in Irish and the translation of Irish. However it demonstrates no additional level of knowledge in the subject being examined and the grade given falsely over portrays the candidates knowledge of the subject to the detriment of other candidates who may have a superior knowledge of that particular subject and can ultimately award a college place to a lesser qualified candidate for no logical reason.
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University places are awarded on the basis of points in total and as such a are not guided by a particularly high level of knowledge in one subject area. The amount of points awarded reflects the amount of work put in by an individual candidate across all exams.

I think that if you sit through Irish, the extra effort is/ is not reflected in your total points score.

Some courses have basic matriculation requirements for specific subjects, and if a candidate does not meet these, they dont meet them, regardless of what an Irish speaking candidate scored.

Finally, very few jobs look in detail to the score in a particular subject in the Leaving as a basis to compare candidates. And if they do, the relative effects that may be gained by irish speaking candidates in LC, would be minimal.
 
SNB said:
University places are awarded on the basis of points in total and as such a are not guided by a particularly high level of knowledge in one subject area. The amount of points awarded reflects the amount of work put in by an individual candidate across all exams.
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surely points in total are affected if you are getting extra marks for each exam you sit through Irish?
 
As an Irish citizen, or a person resident in Ireland, you have a constitutional right to have all your business dealings conducted in Irish, be it in school, in a court room, dealings with officials etc. (see SNB's post). My understanding is the extra marks came about as there was a shortage of Irish speakers to fulfil this constitutional obligation (and still is).

Unless posters are arguing for a referendum to remove Irish as our first official language (yeah that'll pass!) , I can't see the unfairness in the points advantage.
 
As someone else has explained, the bonus points are maximised at lower grades and have little or no effect on a student attaining high marks to begin with. The system favours weaker Gaeilgeoir* students over stronger ones. Whether that's unfair, or another form of culturally valid 'positive discrimination', is open to debate.

The Gaeltacht advantage seems to me to be a hamfisted attempt at social engineering.

* Well, Gaeilgeoir for a day...
 
Re: Junior /Leaving certificate Marking

HighFlier said:
I completely disagree. My children were educated in their younger years outside Ireland and to even approach the Irish Subject Exam papers is a daunting task. Even if they wanted to do their exam through the medium of Irish they could not do so. Also this would apply to the increasing number of immigrant students who are not studying Irish at all. (They are exempt if they joined the educational system after a certain age).

The children attending gaelscoils (many of which are fee paying) have an inherent advantage in the points race not related to ability.

The word unconstitutional springs to mind. Foster all the citizens equally and all that bumph. I wonder if it has ever been challenged legally?
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Hi HighFlier,

I actually was taught in all Irish, junior school and secondary school. So I did my intercert (as it was known then) in Irish. I was very fluent in Irish and very competent as an Irish speaker (only natural as I was immersed in the environment from the age of 3). However learning leaving cert level courses in Irish were unbelievably challenging. Especially physics, biology and history. Adherence to the language (to avail of the 10%) is mandatory, by that I mean you cant write a hybrid Irish/English - Irish text and English scientific terms. The irish/english biology dictionary I used was only written up to G (!!!). All terms had to be translated - which was done in class by the teacher but made the learning curve even more difficult. Highflier - it was unbelievably challenging. So much so that midway through 5th year I continued to learn in irish but opted to sit papers in english (a choice we were given).

As someone who tried it, who is fluent in Irish, I really feel that extra percentage is deserved. Being fluent isn't enough so those of us from the Gaelscoileanna don't have an extra advantage. There is an extra learning curve on many topics that has to be overcome. The extra percentage reflects that.
 
Again, I do not dispute the difficulty of doing the exam through Irish. From your description it seems to be a nightmare so why have the system at all.
If it was abolished the only people who would do the exam through Irish would be native Irish speakers or people with a passion for the language. I would fully defend and support their right to do this and I also support the notion of being allwed to do official government interactions through Irish. I am not anti the Irish language but the extra % in state exams is a hamfisted way to promote it and gives false grades .
 
HighFlier said:
Again, I do not dispute the difficulty of doing the exam through Irish. From your description it seems to be a nightmare so why have the system at all.
If it was abolished the only people who would do the exam through Irish would be native Irish speakers or people with a passion for the language. I would fully defend and support their right to do this and I also support the notion of being allwed to do official government interactions through Irish. I am not anti the Irish language but the extra % in state exams is a hamfisted way to promote it and gives false grades .
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The extra % is really only gained if you do badly - which might be because you did it through Irish in the first place.

I really cant emphasize how tough it is, and how hard it is to get some resources (certain books etc) - so even people from the gaelteachts (who may have an irish advantage over someone like me) have it tough.

So why do it in Irish at all? Because its my teanga mháthartha. Now as a foreigner in another country, where mother tongues are important (Switzerland has 4 of them!), I appreciate even more the opportunity I was given.

I think the 10% is a fair compensation for the lack, or challenges, in the system that english students take for granted, dont experience, dont have to face.

I can see your argument and I understand your frustration - but I feel you need to have experienced it (studying and sitting formal exams in irish) firsthand to understand why its deserved.
 
I think the students deserve the extra few marks. It is torture learning all that vocabulary. You may know terms in business studies for example from life experience. Then you have to go and learn them in Irish. PRSI becomes APBC – what nonsense having to translate all that stuff.

I know someone who went to an all Irish school and went on to study maths in college and had to learn all the terms in English – “Square root” was one of those terms. He had never learned the English for it.
 
I find all the posts about how difficult it is to do the exams as gaeilge fascinating! So you spend 5 years learning all sorts of scientific terms etc in irish......what happens when you get your Applied Physics place in third level? Won't you then have to relearn all the terms in english? Or at least mentally translate stuff into irish? I just don't see the point!! A nursing tutor friend of my dad told him that the students that struggled most were the ones who had gone to gaelscoileanna. Personally I only see the point if you're planning to do a third-level course in irish.
 
3dolls said:
I find all the posts about how difficult it is to do the exams as gaeilge fascinating! So you spend 5 years learning all sorts of scientific terms etc in irish......what happens when you get your Applied Physics place in third level? Won't you then have to relearn all the terms in english? Or at least mentally translate stuff into irish? I just don't see the point!! A nursing tutor friend of my dad told him that the students that struggled most were the ones who had gone to gaelscoileanna. Personally I only see the point if you're planning to do a third-level course in irish.
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Not only that, but Irish is a dead language. I never heard any conversations in it since I left school many years ago, and I have visited all 32 counties. I must have visited hundreds if not thousands of newsagents over the years in different towns, airports, petrol stations etc, and never saw anyone buying Irish language newspapers or magazines. Its unfair that so many billions of our money - taxpayers money - is pumped in to ramming Irish down kids throats in schools, and spent of printing govt. things in Irish etc No wonder we as a country are so bad at continental languages. For example, ask any bewildered German or French elderly tourist in Ireland has any Irish person ever communicated /spoken to them. Never mind listening to the average Irish person when in France or Germany.
 
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