Institutional Racism in Ireland

I agree ClubMan. I'm not saying he shhould have resigned. I am saying it was much more of a resigning matter and he should have the good grace to shut up and keep his head down in these situations.
I find the moral pharicees in the Labour party hard to take.
 
MissRibena said:
Clubman, a crime commited in his private life is different to behaviour while "on the job" representing the people that voted for him.
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Different how? Do you consider an off the cuff stupid/offensive comment in the Dáil worse than a TD prowling a public park in his spare time looking to pay for gay sex or something?
 
Clubman; I consider it different, like I said. However, I would demand a higher standard of behaviour while on the job and I don't think this is anything new. We all have to be on our best behaviour at work and when our work entails representing others, then we have to be especially mindful.

So I guess in the end, yes, I would consider an offensive/racist remark while carrying out a job as represenative of the people worse than looking for a prostitute at night (gay sex or otherwise!). But again, I don't consider either a resignation offence.

Rebecca
 
I agree that there is no conceivable resolution to this discussion. Predictable enough responses from individuals who consider the question to be either PC gone mad or lefty crap.

The bottom line is this. Whether he is a gobshite, buffoon, idiot or not, his comment was racist. In his apology he said sorry for any offence caused. The offence was to utter disparaging racist remarks while in a senior position in public office, which is unnacceptable. He should be sacked, instead of given the auld FF sweep it under the carpet, it will go away treatment.
 
Wait a minute Niallymac. I believe he was wrong and I believe it was racist and I believe we shouldn't tolerate it. However, I also believe that people make mistakes and that when they are contrite and apologise they should be given a second chance. I agree it was a very serious mistake but on the other hand he didn't do anything to endanger lives, like say, driving down the dual carriage way the wrong way while maggoty drunk and off duty. I believe that our acceptance of his apology and the implication that he won't do something like that again shows that we don't tolerate this kind of thing. If he hadn't apologised and it was let slide, that would show that we did tolerate it.

Rebecca
 
Clubman is right in that this was a minor incident. It was an off the cuff remark, one that he's probably embarrassed by now given some reflection.

However, I do believe it's a sacking offence. People in the private sector would be sacked if they made such comments in public, to their peers, or at least severely reprimanded.

Zag is right..."kebabs" does not sound half as bad as "niggers"...but it's a derogatory and demeaning remark nonetheless.

While a sacking or resignation might be OTT, an apology is not good enough in this instance.

Whether he was talking directly about the Turks or not is open to debate...but the use of the word "kebabs" is nonetheless highly significant and was supposed to have maximum impact on Joe's stance.

I also agree with Miss Ribena in relation to the general conduct of politicians in The Dail.
If I acted like most of them do in a meeting in work I'd be given my P45 very quickly. Then again, Parliaments around the world are often like this. It goes to show what a bunch of feckin eejits get involved in politics in the first place.

Personally, no matter what your stance on the matter as to whether he should go or not, he's undoubtedly a gobshite for saying what he said in public. That in itself has to make you question his suitability to his office?!!
 
We all have a racist history by the ever-shifting standards of PC. My generation played "Eeeny meeny miny moe" willy-nilly and nobody seemed to care, Jews were part of the vernacular and not as a religious denomination. I got over it pretty much but for older generations it is even more entrenched, I've been appalled severally by people over 60 from the UK and from here.

The younger generations will have even less exposure to racism and that's great. They may eventually not even be aware of racism, but we are and sometimes it shows. Stamping your little feet and waving your fist in horror when someone makes a slip is excruciatingly childish. If someone says something non-sensical you don't brand them a full time moron, why should a racial faux-pas make someone a convicted racist?
 
Erith said:
The younger generations will have even less exposure to racism and that's great. They may eventually not even be aware of racism, but we are and sometimes it shows.
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Racism is bred through ignorance Erith. It does not get filtered out down through generations unless it's taught out.

Erith said:
Stamping your little feet and waving your fist in horror when someone makes a slip is excruciatingly childish. If someone says something non-sensical you don't brand them a full time moron, why should a racial faux-pas make someone a convicted racist?
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There's nothing childish about it in the slightest. He's a public representative...he represents our country. His job is to know better. There was nothing non-sensical about his remark. He knew full well what he was saying. He was just too much of a gobshite to realise he was going to be in serious doo-doo afterwards.
Just because he's from an older generation does not give him the excuse to make these sort of faux pas. This is the 21st century. If he wants to sit at home and shout at the wogs on his TV then that's his business. Maybe that's where he should be?

Imagine your point, if I'm seeing it correctly, in a different scenario. Imagine a senior member of a company's staff making a derogatory remark about an immigrant in front of other senior and junir staff in his company, or at an AGM. What would happen to him?
 
Gabriel said:
Imagine your point, if I'm seeing it correctly, in a different scenario. Imagine a senior member of a company's staff making a derogatory remark about an immigrant in front of other senior and junir staff in his company, or at an AGM. What would happen to him?
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Good point. In that context it does look like a sacking offence. The question is should be looked at in that context.
 
Gabriel said:
Racism is bred through ignorance Erith. It does not get filtered out down through generations unless it's taught out.
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Or it gets suppressed/repressed so that people simply don't necessarily voice the (a) prejudicial/racist opinions that they hold or (b) legitimate non prejudiced/racist based concerns that they have in relation to immigration policy/multi-culturalism etc. Hardly conducive to a free and open society and discussion of important issues?

Purple said:
Good point. In that context it does look like a sacking offence. The question is should be looked at in that context.
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I don't think so. It's not clear and impossible to prove that Lenihan was actually referring to Turkish/GAMA workers as kebabs.

Anyway - if he resigns over this I'll eat a hat shaped kebab.
 
Gabriel said:
Racism is bred through ignorance Erith. It does not get filtered out down through generations unless it's taught out.



There's nothing childish about it in the slightest. He's a public representative...he represents our country. His job is to know better. There was nothing non-sensical about his remark. He knew full well what he was saying. He was just too much of a gobshite to realise he was going to be in serious doo-doo afterwards.
Just because he's from an older generation does not give him the excuse to make these sort of faux pas. This is the 21st century. If he wants to sit at home and shout at the wogs on his TV then that's his business. Maybe that's where he should be?

Imagine your point, if I'm seeing it correctly, in a different scenario. Imagine a senior member of a company's staff making a derogatory remark about an immigrant in front of other senior and junir staff in his company, or at an AGM. What would happen to him?
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Didn't the head of Standard Life say something deragotory about the Irish recently? He didn't resign or get the boot.

Gabriel, I don't think that there are any higher moral/ethical standards in the private sector. Senior people in orgainsations in which I have worked have said far worse, and nothing has happened to them. If I wanted to make an issue and complain formally, I would have been within my rights to do so. I just ignore their idiocy for what it is.
 
MissRibena said:
I would consider an offensive/racist remark while carrying out a job as represenative of the people worse than looking for a prostitute at night (gay sex or otherwise!).
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Seems odd to me to consider offensive remarks more serious than criminal behaviour.
 
CCOVICH said:
Gabriel, I don't think that there are any higher moral/ethical standards in the private sector. Senior people in orgainsations in which I have worked have said far worse, and nothing has happened to them. If I wanted to make an issue and complain formally, I would have been within my rights to do so. I just ignore their idiocy for what it is.
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I suppose it would fall under the category of gross misconduct!

I've seen all sorts of shenanigans too...but in the main, I think that companies do not generally stand for racism, despite whatever personal examples we may have witnessed being swept under the carpet.
I suppose it would come down to the individuals responsible for disciplining these sorts of incidents as to the sort of action, if any, taken.
 
michaelm said:
It was obviously an idiotic comment from a bit-part clown
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Sounds like good enough reason not to have him representing the country as Minister with responsibility for Overseas Aid in the first place.
 
"Sounds like good enough reason not to have him representing the country as Minister with responsibility for Overseas Aid in the first place."
You would agree then that the same could be said about someone who was stupid enough to cycle around in the dark soliciting sex?
 
ClubMan said:
Seems odd to me to consider offensive remarks more serious than criminal behaviour.
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Clubman, I've said it at least twice already but just to be clear; it is the fact that this was an offensive/racist remark made while sitting in the Dail representing his constituents that makes this case serious.

As regards criminal behaviour; there are degrees of criminality and "criminal behaviour" is a blanket term that can refer to "crimes" at either end of a very broad spectrum. It's beside the point really, but in this particular instance maybe I should state that I would be in favour of at least some decriminalisation of prostitution.

In any case the whole notion of "one being worse than the other" is not mine, but yours and when pushed, yes I would say that a TD that shows racism in the Dail, is worse than a TD that visits a prosititute at night. But since I don't consider either a resignation situation, the scale of gravity doesn't really matter to me.

Rebecca
 
MissRibena said:
It's beside the point really, but in this particular instance maybe I should state that I would be in favour of at least some decriminalisation of prostitution.
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As it happens so would I. As somebody who has regularly had to put up with the nuisance that street prostitution causes to residents in the areas affected I would be inclined to favour law changes that help to move it off the streets too. Apart from that I have no problem with consenting grown adults doing whatever they want as long as it is done within the law and doesn't harm other non consenting others. Where individuals consider a law to be bad or inappropriate then they should campaign to change it rather than simply ignoring it unilaterally.

In any case the whole notion of "one being worse than the other" is not mine, but yours and when pushed, yes I would say that a TD that shows racism in the Dail, is worse than a TD that visits a prosititute at night.
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I guess we'll have to disagree so. In my view the first is covered by freedom of speech and Dáil privilege (regardless of what the consequences might be for outtrageous comments) and is not necessarily illegal (unless under our inciterment to hate laws) while the latter obviously is illegal. As a public act in contravention of the law I personally would consider a TD engaging the services of a prostitute a resignation matter based on legal rather than moral considerations.
 
Niallymac said:
Predictable enough responses from individuals who consider the question to be either PC gone mad or lefty crap.
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Because such responses may be predictable does that make them any less valid?

ClubMan said:
it gets suppressed/repressed so that people simply don't necessarily voice the (a) prejudicial/racist opinions that they hold or (b) legitimate non prejudiced/racist based concerns that they have in relation to immigration policy/multi-culturalism etc. Hardly conducive to a free and open society and discussion of important issues?
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I would have to agree with this. I would say that the vast majority of Irish people periodically make comments or indeed have thoughts that some here would deem racist. The Referendum on Citizenship was deemed racist by many ultra PC types yet there was an 80% Yes. Are these 80% racists?
 
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