Institutional Racism in Ireland

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Niallymac

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If ever we needed any further proof of the institutional racism in Ireland, you only need to see the lilly livered calls for Conor Lenihan's resignation. Throw in the comments of all theTD's who have basically said it was a mistake, a slip of the tongue etc., and there you have it. It's OK to refer to a Turk as a Kebab, or to refer to the collective as Kebabs.

If a British MP referred to the Irish as a bunch of Spud heads, we'd be beating a path to the door demanding a head on a plate, and rightly so. But it's Ok for an Irish TD to do it in Dail Eireann. It's easy to see why so many institutions in the state are complicit in this sort of behaviour when this is the example that is set.

I have an in law who is a senior member of the Garda Siochana, and he refers to non nationals and travellers in the most derogatory terms imaginable that I am unable to tolerate his company any more for fear of decking him. This country needs upwards of 50k immigrants per annum jus to sustain it at its current growth levels. At some point these people are going to get well pissed off and there will be a backlash. Just look at the riots in UK and Germany over the years that have been spawned by institutional racism ? But the Gardai would just love this to happen, it would give them the opportunity to get stuck in !
 
A bit over the top with the comments about the cops wanting to get stuck in IMO.

I was in a pub last night and a oriential chap asked for the TV to be put on, the "old" (50ish) bar man said "hang on cant you see I'm busy" and the under his breath said "fecking chink".

I remember looking at British TV in the 70's, it was all jokes about Paddies, Wogs, Fuzzy wuzzies etc. I would say that public expressions of racism by TD, public personalities etc in Ireland is very very rare
 
whether we need them or not for our economy just because they are foreign don't make them bad people.......

hay I think this country is far better with influence from other countries and as long as they are prepared to work I think they are good for the community.....

however maybe we are a bit harsh on the TD !! lets judge a man by his actions rather than his words ...
 
I was surprised to hear on the radio last night Vincent Browne and a number of his guests wondering what all the excitement was about. Yes, it was only one comment. Yes, he apologised. I don't think he should resign, but I do think it represents racism and I don't think it can be viewed any other way. He was slagging off another TD for his interest in what Conor Lenihan thinks is a minor matter involving people who don't even warrant being addressed correctly. Maybe it is a minor matter, maybe there is nothing behind the claims, but you can't go around referring to groups of people like that in my books.

If I was an Irish person in Turkey, or in the US, or anywhere and one of their parliamentarians told one of his colleagues to go worry about his paddies instead I would think twice about regarding the governing party as treating me fairly. Even more so when the person doing the talking is a minister for overseas aid.

z
 
Seems to me that it was a stupid/ham-fisted attempt at humour rather than anything more nefarious than that. To call it a racist incident is at best presumptuous (since it's not obvious that he was actually referring to the GAMA workers themselves - he could have been referring to the highly publicised issue of GAMA allegedly cutting off their food supplies and SIPTU/Higgins and others stepping in to help out on that front) and at worst a completely over the top reaction which certainly doesn't help the fight against real racist comments/incidents. To start calling for resignations over admittedly stupid comments like this is grist to the mill of people who claim that political correctness has gone mad and who therefore also lump petty incidents like this in with really serious racist incidents and dismiss both lightly. Some sense of balance in these matters is required and knee-jerk reactions on either side serve no useful purpose.

In my opinion an apology should suffice and calls for Lenihan's resignation are way over the top. I would be more concerned about McDowell's comments (also reported on Vincent Browne's programme last night) to an Oireachtas committee yesterday about "most asylum seekers" having "cock and bull stories" and that "unfortunately" (!) he was bound by the Geneva Convention to allow them due process to state their cases! Comments such as these seem to me to be more prejudicial and potentially dangerous than Lenihan's more widely reported and commented upon off the cuff remark.
 
People love a chance to froth about racism don't they? The guy apologised and may actually turn out to be a benefit to the country if he's allowed to move on.
Find something important to yack about, even try something where you don't simply rely on conventional liberal reactionism if you're feeling adventurous (fat chance).

Edit: This is of course a rehetorical message directed at nobody in particular, most of the posts here are perfectly reasonable to me. Just letting off some steam ;)
 
zardebt said:
whether we need them or not for our economy just because they are foreign don't make them bad people.......

hay I think this country is far better with influence from other countries and as long as they are prepared to work I think they are good for the community.....

however maybe we are a bit harsh on the TD !! lets judge a man by his actions rather than his words ...
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When Ron Atkinson said a racist remark about Marcel Desailly live on TV he wasn't doing anything only saying things - so should he have kept his job? Course not. His apology, like Lenihan's was pathetic - sorry I said it rather than it was an awful thing to say. Just another in the long line of Irish people you often hear saying "I'm not racist but....".
 
clubman - how does one objectively define "real racist comment/incidents" ?

If he had referred to "niggers" would that be classed as a real racist comment ? Or could it be argued that he might have been referring to something else entirely and to presume he was talking about a particular race or group of people is too presumptuous to be taken seriously ?

Is there not an element of presumption in all discussion ? I think there is and I think without it we would all be sitting in our labs in our white coats refusing to discuss anything without scientific fact to back it up.

z
 
How would he benefit the country Erith? The Dail is not a rehabilition institution for the loose-lipped.

However, much as I don't like the way Conor Lenihan spoke, his words or their "possible" racist implications, I don't think he should resign. He regrets it, so he clearly knows there was something wrong with what he said, whether he was referring to the people or their food supplies. Calling for his resignation is not OTT; it brings home exactly how offensive his language could be. It's his actual resignation that would be OTT. Joe Higgins is dead right though; the best thing the government could do is to sort out the situation for GAMA workers ASAP; the company has already had enough of our softer side through tax concessions. I do wonder though; is this how other countries get their captial projects in on target; by taking advantage of immigrants? If so, maybe we should not feel so bad for our budget over-runs. My boyfriend is an immigrant worker and while he's nobody's fool, I have to block out half the stuff that goes on at his work; otherwise you'd be angry all day every day.

On a general point, I don't know much about parliamentary etiquette in countries other than Ireland or the UK but I really find the way they do business apalling. All the heckling, guffawing and shouting always jarrs with me. In any other line of work, such behaviour at a meeting would be seen as unprofessional, uncouth, rude, jouvenile etc. Could they not have a bit of manners, as Mammy would say?

Rebecca
 
zag said:
clubman - how does one objectively define "real racist comment/incidents" ?
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You can't. But common sense should help when deciding whether something is simply a stupid comment or a really serious racist one.

If he had referred to "niggers" would that be classed as a real racist comment ?
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Yes. But referring to "kebabs" particularly when it's not necessarily the case that he was actually referring to the GAMA workers is not in my view.

Or could it be argued that he might have been referring to something else entirely and to presume he was talking about a particular race or group of people is too presumptuous to be taken seriously ?
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I don't understand this comment but, as I have said, it is not clear or provable that he was calling the GAMA workers themselves "kebabs".

Is there not an element of presumption in all discussion ? I think there is and I think without it we would all be sitting in our labs in our white coats refusing to discuss anything without scientific fact to back it up.
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I don't understand this comment either.

Ultimately it's my personal opinion that this was simply a stupid comment rather than a serious racist incident. There is no way that I can prove that this is the case or that anybody else can prove otherwise. Some common sense and sense of proportion must be applied to matters such as this. To call it a racist incident simply invites people to dismiss complaints about more serious incidents as policitcal correctness gone mad and gets us nowhere in tackling racism.

One a related note... given that some (minority) groups have tended to (re)appropriate terms of abuse, is it racist when, for example, some blacks refer to each other as "niggers" or prejudicial when some homosexuals refer to each other as "queer" when the use of those terms by individuals outside these groups would normally be beyond the pale? When can one determine that the mere use of language betrays racist/prejudicial beliefs?
 
ClubMan said:
One a related note... given that some (minority) groups have tended to (re)appropriate terms of abuse, is it racist when, for example, some blacks refer to each other as "niggers" or prejudicial when some homosexuals refer to each other as "queer" when the use of those terms by individuals outside these groups would normally be beyond the pale? When can one determine that the mere use of language betrays racist/prejudicial beliefs?
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Is it not related to the theories of "The Other"? If you belongs to a minority group and use a term about someone else in the same group, that is one thing because you are using the term as an identifier, common ground. But if you are not of the group and use the term, then you are using it to differentiate yourself from the group, as something "other" than you. I could be wrong on this, it's an area I've touched on indirectly but am sure someone else is up on sociology/psychology theory.

Rebecca
 
I'm in the 'PC has gone mad' camp. This was obviously an idiotic comment from a bit-part clown in the Dáil circus that has been blown out of proportion by a lazy liberal media. As for McDowell's comments about "most asylum seekers" having "cock and bull stories" well I don't like him but if the stats show that more than 90% of asylum applications are unfounded then is he wrong? If he said "speculative claims" instead of "cock and bull stories" would that be palatable enough?
 
Vincent Browne challenged the 90% rejection rate last night and nobody was able to back it up. Seemingly while c. 90% of claims are rejected initially many (the percentage was not clear) are granted on appeal. This suggests that either the initial process or the appleals process or both are flawed. In any case, my personal concern (and Vincent Browne's as it happens) was more to do with the Minister's statement that it was "unfortunate" that the Geneva Convention required that due process be given to asylum seekers. At least he's honest about his views but this is a very worrying statement from a Minister for Justice in my view. It certainly puts Lenihan's stupid comments earlier in the shade in terms of prejudice in my personal opinion.
 
michaelm said:
If he said "speculative claims" instead of "cock and bull stories" would that be palatable enough?
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What he should say is that the claims are found to be false or that they cannot be substantiated. Presumably there are a certain number of messers and criminals in their midst but lets not forget that the majority of those that are rejected were simply looking for a better life for themselves and their kids, even if their stories of persecution prove untrue. We can turn them away showing a little respect and humanity.

Rebecca
 
It was a stupid thing to say. I wouldn't support calls for him to resign because of the racist nature of the remarks however if there were calls for him to resign because the incident shows him up as a buffoon then I would have to agree.
I do think it is a bit rich for a certain member of the labour party to be calling for Conor Lenihan's resignation when he didn't think to resign after being caught pedalling his bike around the phoenix park looking for rent boys.
 
Purple, that was completely different; it was his private life. Conor Lenihan was on tax-payers' time.

Rebecca
 
So if Conor Lenihan joins the Klu Klux Clan, puts on a pointy white hat and white robes and stands around a burning cross drinking a few brews that's ok as long as he does it on his own time?
 
Will ya go away outta that Purple :).

Clubman, a crime commited in his private life is different to behaviour while "on the job" representing the people that voted for him. We've seen umpteen examples of TDs comitting crimes and holding onto their jobs. I'm not calling for Lenihan to resign in any case.

Rebecca
 
There's obviously no conceivable resolution to this discussion because the seriousness of the offence hangs on the intent of the minister at the time. Nobody would expect him to be honest so we're forced to take his "I didn't mean to offend anybody and some of my best friends are Turkish" statement at face value.

What troubles me is that we no longer demand standards of behaviour of our elected politicians at or above the levels we impose on ourselves. This is the direct result of Fianna Fail's (and it has largely been their's) descent into the slime over the last quarter of a century.

Paddy Donegan had no chance of survival over some off the cuff remarks about President O'Dalaigh but the Minister for Overseas Development can insult members of an ethnic/national minority with impunity.

Maybe he is just a buffoon but only in a corrupted political system could such a lapse be consequence free.
 
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