Im a small Employer and I have to cut pay or let staff go. Meeting with Union.

[j26]

Your implying that the union and the employees interests are the same, my point is that, that is not always the case. From experience. Anyway this is getting off the point. Ypur advise to get an advisor is good and might save money in the long run.

Unfortunately this is true sometimes, and I've seen it happen. But then it's up to the members of the union to make it work for them.


OP,I've just thought of an advantage of dealing with a union for you. If there are, say, 7 staff in the union, you only need persuade 4 of them to agree, and the other 3 are bound by the union decision.

 

[stephnyc]

just a thought - do you think you have any employees who might actually prefer the redundancy? If they are there a number of years or have changed circumstances, maybe they want the lump sum

voluntary redundancies might be an alternative here, and might explain why the employees are flatly denying to accept the inevitable

 

[AlbacoreA]

Brinkmanship with peoples jobs.

 

[Guest116]

Brinkmanship with peoples jobs.

Dont want to go too off topic here. But I never understand this type of view. We live in a capitalist society, companies are started by risk takers to make money. The goal of businesses is to make profit, not to provide jobs.

 

[AlbacoreA]

We were talking about the union not the company. Its the union doing the brinkmanship. When they could just cut to the chase and meet halfway instead of making a song and dance about it. Anyway its not relevent to the OP's problem.

 

[Niall M]

just a thought - do you think you have any employees who might actually prefer the redundancy? If they are there a number of years or have changed circumstances, maybe they want the lump sum

voluntary redundancies might be an alternative here, and might explain why the employees are flatly denying to accept the inevitable

I dont think so, the longest serving employee is only 5 years. so the package would not be huge for people. thanks for all the comments and help. i think i will meet the unions, pretty must say that it will have to be a pay cut or redundancy, show them my accounts and the position i am in. I dont think i will bring my solicitor as i want this to essentially be an informal meeting more than anything (if thats possible). i have my solicitor on notice to meet pending the outcome of the meeting.

 

[AlbacoreA]

The legal minimum is 2 weeks per year isn't it?

Though I guess it would be in everyones interest to sell the idea of reducing wages, either though wage reductions or reducing the days work. What ever is appropriate for the work comming in.

 

[becky]

Remember it's your company and you didn't have to agree to meet them. If the meeting gets out of hand just call it off.

 

[Mpsox]

I dont think so, the longest serving employee is only 5 years. so the package would not be huge for people. thanks for all the comments and help. i think i will meet the unions, pretty must say that it will have to be a pay cut or redundancy, show them my accounts and the position i am in. I dont think i will bring my solicitor as i want this to essentially be an informal meeting more than anything (if thats possible). i have my solicitor on notice to meet pending the outcome of the meeting.

If you are showing your accounts to outside parties, check with your solicitors that the union doesn't need to sign a Non Decleration agreement or something like that, normally a formal recognition agreement would include this but in this case, you don't have a formel recognition agreement.

Secondly state at the start that you are meeting as a courtesy and that it doesn't imply formal recognition. You may not want to have to deal with the union on every HR related activity in the future

Personally in my dealings with union reps I've found most of them to be realistic and they have actually helped in the past in terms of pointing out the real world to their members. However there are some who may be simply out to make a name for themselves and who may be of the view that you are only out to screw the staff, regardless of what the books say. Suggest you make some enquiries as to who from whatever union is coming in to try and find out what that person is like

 

[Niall M]

Remember it's your company and you didn't have to agree to meet them. If the meeting gets out of hand just call it off.

Thanks Becky, im going to meet them, as a courtesy, show them the accounts, tell them its either paycuts or redundancy. thats the extent im going to say, if they going off on a tangent or anything im out of there.

 

[j26]

Thanks Becky, im going to meet them, as a courtesy, show them the accounts, tell them its either paycuts or redundancy. thats the extent im going to say, if they going off on a tangent or anything im out of there.

Hardly any point meeting them then, is there, if your ideas are so fixed?

Have you considered that the workers might have some ideas other than yours to get the company back on its feet? Maybe, just maybe, some deal can be brokered that will be of benefit to both sides, and if done in a respectful manner it could do wonders for staff engagement with the company and the problems it faces, ultimately leading to better results for all. However, for that to happen, you have to approach it with an open mind, and to me it doesn't sound like you are doing so.

 

[Niall M]

I have been nothing but open with the staff for the last number of months. I have asked the staff for ideas other than what i propose, in short there are no other options. Look around, the recession is everywhere. Anyway, i met the union, showed them the accounts, they in turn left the room, met the staff. They came back and saidf the 3 options are paycuts, hours being worked reduction, and redundancy. They then said the preferred option is the redundancy!!! Isnt that the weirdest thing i ever heard! any thoughts?

 

[missey1978]

I may be too late with this post but you need to be carewful meeting with the unoin as every teeney fault that you my have as an employer will be dragged up by them and they will end up tearing shreads our of you for everything and avoid the issue at hand. Dont comit yourself to anything when you meet with them and you need to have someone with you for support, hopefully your accountant will go with you. I wish you were my employeer as you seem fair and reasonable. When my hours were cut there was no discussion or pre warning about it. Another fact is that surely your staff can see how bad business really is and they have got to realise that it is a pay cut or redundancy especially after you showing them your accounts!!! You may hope that you have to make some of them redundant if that is the loyality you have. I really hope it all works out for you.

 

[Niall M]

Thanks Missey!!! 3 staff just text me, said they will take pay cut. said they were put under pressure from other staff to join union and refuse the cuts.

 

[sam h]

They then said the preferred option is the redundancy!!! Isnt that the weirdest thing i ever heard! any thoughts?

I guess you should ask if anyone is interested in redundancy, I know you said you're not trading too long, but you never know, it might suit 1 or 2 and then that will let you figure out how you cut pay and/or hours.

Best of luck with it. Heed what other were saying about the unions (going forward). Your contract is with the employees, not the unions. They will drag up every little issue & hassle going. DO NOT give them official recognition....in fact, try not to meet with them directly. They are trained to spot any minor infraction by employers and will actively encourage your employees to persue. I'm more of the "give & take" school of thought (I'm coming at this as an employee)

 

[Bronte]

Thanks Missey!!! 3 staff just text me, said they will take pay cut. said they were put under pressure from other staff to join union and refuse the cuts.

I think you'v'e been more than fair and upfront. Can't believe you were even willing to show them your books. You are trying to save the company and their jobs but someone seems to have it in for you. Someone militant who may have another job lined up or a beef with you. Out of the 8 you have 3 who want to work with you, can you talk to each of the remaining 5 to see how they really feel. Do they actually realise how little statutory redundancy would be?

Apart from that, with a loss of 100K do you think the business is viable even with a pay cut?

 

[missey1978]

I am delighted that you got those texts...hope the rest see sence!

 

[z107]

. Out of the 8 you have 3 who want to work with you, can you talk to each of the remaining 5 to see how they really feel.

Well I make it 5 out of 8 who want to work with them - the 2 that didn't want to join the union at the beginning, and now these three.

You also need to axe two people. Be careful when choosing who to make redundant they they don't think it was because of their union shenanigans.

 

[Guest116]

Well I make it 5 out of 8 who want to work with them - the 2 that didn't want to join the union at the beginning, and now these three.

You also need to axe two people. Be careful when choosing who to make redundant they they don't think it was because of their union shenanigans.

This is where you need HR\Employment expertise to advise, you dont make people redundant. You make ROLES redundant. If there is anything in the process that makes employees feel like specific people were chosen then you might end up in trouble in front of an employment appeals board.

 

[micmclo]

So you have eight staff and five have agreed to a pay cut.
If you decide to make staff redundant you can't just select the remaining three because they won't agree with your terms

As said, you are making a role redundant, not a specific person.
And you may well be asked to show the process you used to select who was made redundant.

Anyway, am I the only one who finds it strange that staff agree to wage cuts by text message?
If that was me I'd expect a new contract and the opportunity to read over it and seek advice from others.
Text message seems far too informal, even if this a small company