Im a small Employer and I have to cut pay or let staff go. Meeting with Union.

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Niall M

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Hi. Just some advice required.

I am an employer and the same as everyone else: things are bad.

I called all staff in last month to explain and said there would have to be a 20% pay cut.

They all then went off and joined an independent union and the union have written to me saying they are refusing to take a pay cut.

I rang the union and have arranged to meet them next week. If they don't accept the pay cuts I will have no choice but to make people redundant.

Just in figures, I made a profit 12 months ago of 40k, this year the loss to august is 100k.

Any advice on how to talk to union, last thing i want to do is make people redundant.
 
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Re: Meeting Union - What to expect

Firstly there is nothing to stop staff joining a trade union, it is their constitutional right

Secondly at this stage you are not legally obliged to recognise the trade union or talk to them in any way. There are steps they can take to try and force you to do so, but that is something that could take months and years

Thirdly, you cannot legally impose pay-cuts on staff, you can ask them voluntarily to take a pay cut but if they refuse to do so, then you cannot simply enforce that. You are altering an employees contract and making an illegal deduction under the Payment of Wages act, you could be held to have broken their contract of employment and potentially be done for unfair dismissal if staff felt they had no option but to resign. Remember as well that the Minimum Wages rules will also apply

However, many staff around the country have taken pay cuts, some are forced/bullied into it by their employers(who are taking a risk by doing so), some do so in ignorence of their rights and some have taken it because the reasons behind it are explained to them, the consequences and risks to their employment are understood.

You need to communicate the reasons for these proposed paycuts, perhaps add that you aim for them to be temporary to get through the current crisis and then spell out exactly what will happen if you don't get your costs down. If you need to get you staff costs down by 20%, paycuts is one way of doing it, redundancy is another
 
Re: Meeting Union - What to expect

Produce documentation stating losses in business, no Union will advise members to take pay cut unless they were certain job losses were unavoidable
 
Re: Meeting Union - What to expect

I want to talk to the unions, i am going to bring my last set of management accounts and show them exactly the position. Im not hiding anything from the staff, things are bad, and they surely can see it. Im a little dissapointed that they dont row in and try and save the business.
 
Re: Meeting Union - What to expect

Have you tried showing books to staff and appealing to their common sense, call a meeting between you , your accountant and the staff and thrash out all issues,concerns before you meet with Union.


As I said, no money in redundancies for Union, so would,nt be worried dealing with them.

All the best in the future.
 
Re: Meeting Union - What to expect

thanks crum, i have shown the staff the figures, only 2 of the staff are agreeable with the cuts. i cant understand them, well its redundancy after. will still meet union and set out my position.

Thanks for help
 
Re: Meeting Union - What to expect

How many members of staff do you have?

Talk to the union but don't give them official recognition.
 
Re: Meeting Union - What to expect

Niall M said:
thanks crum, i have shown the staff the figures, only 2 of the staff are agreeable with the cuts. i cant understand them, well its redundancy after. will still meet union and set out my position.

Thanks for help
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I'd tred carefully first. Speak to your lawyer or a representative body first just to discuss the detail. You may do or say certain things with the best of intentions, but end up suffering in the long term.
 
Re: Meeting Union - What to expect

Don,t see how official recignition or lawyers/IBEC will clear this one up, OP has proof that business is failing, and unless changes are made redundancy is inevitable.

Only needs legal representation if signing new T+Cs, addendums etc ....

Think you give Unions too much credit, they are losing members due to recession and their mood (private sector) is not militant.
 
Re: Meeting Union - What to expect

Niall M said:
Im a little disappointed that they dont row in and try and save the business.
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Have you told them what you want/expect them to do, and pointed out the long-term benefits for them?
 
yes, i have shown them the loss results, and the various ways i need to cut costs. i have been totally above board with them and i would always like to think that i am very open with them and availible to consult and deal with any issues they have.
 
Re: Meeting Union - What to expect

Purple said:
How many members of staff do you have?

Talk to the union but don't give them official recognition.
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8 staff plus myself. the staff only joined union after me discussnig the paycuts with them, the 2 that accepted the paycuts didnt bother joining the union, they said they can see and accept the proposals. what do you mean about giving them official recognition?
 
AlbacoreA said:
Some people just don't get it, especially in the unions.
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I don't get that comment. Several staff joined a union (as is their right), and are now seeking to negotiate the best possible terms for themselves in what is a difficult position for all parties - staff and owner.

What's illogical about that?


OP, treat the union with respect, and you will probably be able to negotiate a decent deal, especially if it's obvious from what you present that you are sharing part of the pain. Contrary to the propoganda, they are generally reasonable enough.
 
I would strongly advise you to work with an employment\HR expert of some sort on this.

There are procedures you must follow when making people redundant or else you leave yourself open to the affected employees making employment appeals where you may end up paying out more money.

I cant recommend anyone and I dont work in HR. But I know from experience you need to do this right. Unless you know HR and employment law dont do this alone. Dont talk to the Union by yourself. If you think just by showing them your accounts that they will throw their hands up and say "ah ok, sure fire ahead and make them redundant so" you are mistaken. The union are paid to fight the employees corner.
 
j26 said:
I don't get that comment. Several staff joined a union (as is their right), and are now seeking to negotiate the best possible terms for themselves in what is a difficult position for all parties - staff and owner.

What's illogical about that?....
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They are not negotiating. They (Union and Saff) are refusing a paycut.

Result they'll lose their jobs and get a paycut of 100% instead of 20%.
 
Your implying that the union and the employees interests are the same, my point is that, that is not always the case. From experience. Anyway this is getting off the point. Ypur advise to get an advisor is good and might save money in the long run.
 
AlbacoreA said:
They are not negotiating. They (Union and Saff) are refusing a paycut.
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Merely an opening negotiation position.

Let's say you want to buy a house where the asking price is €200,000. If you entered negotiations saying "I'm willing to pay the asking price (and a bit more actually), but I'm hoping to get you to reduce it", you'd be an idiot.
 
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