And Ireland was promised Home Rule in 1914, and the Hashemites were promised Mecca about the same time. None of these ever came to anything.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion
Hamas attack on Israel
- Thread starter Purple
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Really? The promise of Home Rule to Ireland in 1914 had nothing to do with the eventual emergence of the Irish Free State? It never came to anything? It was not the be all and end all, but it was part of the process.
And the empires dominating the Middle East in 1914 or 1917 were knackered by the end of World War Two. The world and the region was in turmoil, and this created a space for change. Israel emerged from that change and the Balfour declaration and British Mandate played a role in the seeds of that change.
It wasn't an idea that came out of nowhere post Holocaust, is the point. The creation of Israel was never just about the Holocaust.
Nor was Israel the only state born in the 20th century, maps were being redrawn, new countries emerging in the wake of those empires.
One could just as easily flip your argument around to show it wasn't just the promises of major powers to Ireland or Israel but in large part also the actions of people on the ground in pushing the boundaries of those mandates that triggered the change that eventually emerged.
Duke of Marmalade
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Interesting article by FOT in today's IT. I was expecting another angle of the Mickey D, Mullally line "blame it on the capitalists and colonialists". I know FOT would be a fully paid up member of that school but instead he reminds us that the Israeli terrorists (Irgun) who kicked the British out of Palestine were best of friends with our own IRA and indeed regarded Michael Collins as a hero. He compared that with today's murals in Belfast - republican pro Palestinian and loyalist pro Israeli. Funny old world.
Was Fintan reading my posts?!
There is nothing funny about it. Republicans consistently siding with the oppressed.
Its just in the last 75 years Israel has gone from oppressed to oppressor.
Some around here just haven't kept up with the evolving situation.
Duke of Marmalade
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Risking going off topic but with my Nordie background I was interested in FOT's reference to Belfast's murals. Republicans siding with the Palestinians may be related to "oppressed" solidarity. But the Loyalist identification with Israelis is definitely related to seeing themselves also facing a threat to wipe NI off the map.
Identifying with the oppressed sounds oh so noble. They also identified with FARC and ETA.
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What do you mean by the oppressed?
Some around here are led by emotion and the childish notion that there are goods guys and bad guys in every conflict.
Ceist Beag
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There are others on here who think that it's only about two sets of bad guys and even express anger at those who have the temerity to ask for restraint or show concern for the millions of good guys getting blown up in the middle of the conflict.
I don't see that. I think everyone sees lots of innocent people suffering in Gaza. Some even see innocent people suffering in Israel. Indeed some can even see that Jews can be innocent and shooting unarmed Jewish men women and children is wrong.
Then there's that small group that think the leadership of Gaza is an evil fundamentalist cult that is willing to see any number of their own people dead in order to see all the Israelis dead.
Those people in that small group wonder why the Irish media doesn't mention the continued rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza. They wonder why there is little of no criticism of Hamas, other than a small preamble of an anti Israeli diatribe, for starting the war and for doing so in a way that had no strategic military goal but was designed as an act of terror to illicit the very response from Israel that we are seeing now.
Those people also question Iran's role in this and Russia's role behind Iran.
They question if it is better to back a democracy, albeit a flawed one led by a corrupt extremist who is doing everything he can to undermine the democratic structures of the country he leads, or an evil oppressive fundamentalist regime which actively throws its own people into the meat grinder of war in order to further its utterly unattainable fundamentalist goals.
I see the best outcome as one in which Israel is less afraid and therefore less extreme so that a proper two state solution is back on the table. That required the destruction of Hamas and the removal of the current Israeli government. The latter can be done through a peaceful election. Only a fool would think that Hamas will obey the democratic will of the people of Gaza.
Ceist Beag
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Nobody on here suggested otherwise Purple, nobody. Complete strawman argument.
Plenty are ignoring it.
Duke of Marmalade
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What an unbelievable comment from Gutteres: "the Hamas massacre did not happen in a vacuum, there have been 56 years of Israeli suffocating occupation".
For sure call the Israelis out if they are breaking international law (maybe noting "not in a vaccuum"). At the right time criticise the Israeli occupation (but in a balanced way).
But imagine if the UN supremo said the Enniskillen bombings did not happen in a vacuum, the Shankill bombings, the Whitecross massacre, the Omagh bombings, Greysteel, Monaghan etc. Or what if he said this about 9/11?
He has since retracted - sorry his credibity is at zero, please go.
* I must apologise (everybody else does) for my parochial reference to NI. There have been 5 times as many innocent civilian deaths in the few weeks of this war compared to the 30 years of the Troubles.
For sure call the Israelis out if they are breaking international law (maybe noting "not in a vaccuum"). At the right time criticise the Israeli occupation (but in a balanced way).
But imagine if the UN supremo said the Enniskillen bombings did not happen in a vacuum, the Shankill bombings, the Whitecross massacre, the Omagh bombings, Greysteel, Monaghan etc. Or what if he said this about 9/11?
He has since retracted - sorry his credibity is at zero, please go.
* I must apologise (everybody else does) for my parochial reference to NI. There have been 5 times as many innocent civilian deaths in the few weeks of this war compared to the 30 years of the Troubles.
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There are plenty of people in this country who would agree with him if he did.
Our next government already agrees with that.
Duke of Marmalade
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Well, it is one thing for terrorists and their apologists to excuse these heinous acts but the sec gen of the UN
It was bad enough our own gang asking Israel to behave themselves but at least they didn't dare excuse the barbarity of the Hamas attack.
Ceist Beag
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Shocking alright to express concern for the millions of innocent people who have been penned into an open air prison and bombed from a height, by a state with previous in this regard. How very dare they. The same state is now also killing the families of reporters in the area. I suppose our leaders should stay quiet about that too. Bad enough is right.
Why is this being called an Israeli Hamas war when it's a conflict between Israel and Gaza?
In the last 2 weeks there have been over 7000 rockets fired into Israel and they are still being fired now. They are being fired from all over Gaza. I'm not for a moment supporting the apocalyptic rhetoric from Benjamin Netanyahu but what is Israeli to do now? Should they just continue to let their country be attacked?
For all the people who were protesting in recent years about the blockade of Gaza and the restrictions on large pipes for water and concrete for building houses, schools and hospitals, this is what Hamas have actually built with the resources that were sent to help the sick and poor and old.
In the last 2 weeks there have been over 7000 rockets fired into Israel and they are still being fired now. They are being fired from all over Gaza. I'm not for a moment supporting the apocalyptic rhetoric from Benjamin Netanyahu but what is Israeli to do now? Should they just continue to let their country be attacked?
For all the people who were protesting in recent years about the blockade of Gaza and the restrictions on large pipes for water and concrete for building houses, schools and hospitals, this is what Hamas have actually built with the resources that were sent to help the sick and poor and old.
Yes, how dare Israel react to a terrorist organisation which has fired 7000 rockets at them in the last few weeks. They should accept being bombed from a height by a "state" with previous in this regard.
Against the same "State" that murders political opponents, threatens women journalists with death if they don't cover their hair on TV and subjects minorities and LGBT people to ISIS like oppression.
They certainly stay quiet about the above issues.
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Ceist Beag
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Why twist words Purple? Who said "they should accept being bombed from a height by a "state" with previous in this regard."? Everyone who spoke said Israel has the right to defend themselves. There is nothing wrong imho with saying this and at the same time saying you cannot bomb innocent civilians as you please. You and the Duke however take issue with anyone who shows concern for the imprisoned innocent.
Also, one is a democratically elected government, the other is a terrorist organisation. You seem to expect that our leaders should hold them to the same standards. If so, should we refer to the Israeli forces as terrorists? Or to Hamas as a legitimate government?
Also, one is a democratically elected government, the other is a terrorist organisation. You seem to expect that our leaders should hold them to the same standards. If so, should we refer to the Israeli forces as terrorists? Or to Hamas as a legitimate government?
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They are not bombing innocent civilians as they please. It is the suggestion that they are which I take issue with.
No, I take issue with the characterisation that Hamas are somehow justified in their actions, that Israel caused this problem and that Israel is responsible for the suffering of the people of Gaza, people who have been so badly served by their own leaders, be they the terrorists who are in charge now or the corrupt and inept former terrorists who preceded them.
The Israeli Government is a despicable collection of bigots, extremists, chancers and criminals but none of this would be happening without Hamas. A little under 50% of the Israeli people agree with my characterisation of the Israeli Government but that same despicable collection of bigots, extremists, chancers and criminals don't murder the Israelis who protest against them and try to remove them from office through democratic means. The same can't be said for Hamas.
No, I expect our leaders to acknowledge that one is a democratically elected government, the other is a terrorist organisation. Michael Martin is close to the wrong side of that and Micky D is so far on the wrong side of it that it is understandable that some people conclude that he's just a well spoken anti-Semite.
Plenty in Ireland do.
Plenty in Ireland think so.