Fianna Fail at it Again

[Complainer]

Most people aren't anti-public servants per se. It's just that the public sector pay bill is so huge and has been wildly inflated over recent years because we thought we were a rich country. The pay bill has to come down, it hasn't come down enough and there seems to be a feeling of 'we've taken cuts, why should we take more'? The why is because the country can't afford to pay what it currently pays. End of.

Sorry, but you don't get away with 'end of' because it's just not true. We're not paying for public servants, we're paying for public services. Those who don't depend on public services are often very quick to find ways to dismantle them. Most Irish people see the value in public services and are prepared to pay for them.

The 'can't afford' arguement doesn't hold. We can easily afford decent public services with the right tax model. Let's get rid of the €11.4 billion in tax reliefs for middle and high earners for a start - then we can continue to provide decent public services for Irish people.

 

[thedaras]

Increments anyone?

How come no one mentioned the fact that most of those working n the private sector, have taken pay cuts as well ,but most of the private sector DO NOT get increments.

It wouldn't be that unpalatable to take a pay cut knowing you were going to get an 1/2/3 % INCREMENT

 

[becky]

I actually thought that judges were public servants

Yes they are but their pay is protected. I don't have a major problem with their top line being protected but believe they should pay the pension levy just like any other tax and levy paid by public servants.

 

[Complainer]

How come no one mentioned the fact that most of those working n the private sector, have taken pay cuts as well ,but most of the private sector DO NOT get increments.

Nonsense. I spent 20+ years in the private sector, across a broad range of MNCs and indigenous companies (including the dark dismal days of the 80s) and always got an increment every year.

 

[thedaras]

Nice try of a red herring there! Point out the nonsense please..
What you are failing to mention is that in the LAST few years as the private sector were losing jobs,not getting pay increases,not having job security,and taking a pay cut that the PS were and still are getting increments!And also compliments of the CP agreement no further cuts for the next four years..

 

[Deiseblue]

Nice try of a red herring there! Point out the nonsense please..
What you are failing to mention is that in the LAST few years as the private sector were losing jobs,not getting pay increases,not having job security,and taking a pay cut that the PS were and still are getting increments!And also compliments of the CP agreement no further cuts for the next four years..

Again I must correct you " the PS were and are still getting increments " is not correct - SOME are.

The Banks & Insurance companies employ incremental salaries as do Dunnes , Shaws , Penneys , Tescos etc. & still continue to do so , personally I don't have a particular difficulty with this system and indeed like Complainer I worked in the Private Sector for many years ( in 7 different companies ! ) and received increments in each.

 

[thedaras]

Did you receive them in the last two years?
You will also find that Dunnes Pennys Shaws etc are making a profit.Where is the money/profit in the PS?
The private sector is moving swiftly to a productivity type related increase..

 

[Tentman]

Nice try of a red herring there! Point out the nonsense please..
What you are failing to mention is that in the LAST few years as the private sector were losing jobs,not getting pay increases,not having job security,and taking a pay cut that the PS were and still are getting increments!And also compliments of the CP agreement no further cuts for the next four years..

Of course you are conveniently forgetting that it was only in the early naughties that Public Service pay caught up with Private Sector pay. You are also forgetting that Public Service pay has been frozen since Sept 2008.

 

[thedaras]

Of course you are forgetting that they also have job security,a great pension,a guaranteed four years of no pay cuts,great time off for cashing non existant cheques.

There must be a premium applied for the terms and conditions which the PS enjoy...

Frozen? de-frosting,, they still get increments..

 

[becky]

Of course you are forgetting that they also have job security,a great pension,a guaranteed four years of no pay cuts,great time off for cashing non existant cheques.

There must be a premium applied for the terms and conditions which the PS enjoy...

Frozen? de-frosting,, they still get increments..

But do we have job security anymore? I think my pension is okay, not great.

No pay cuts for four years, really? Who can believe anything the brian's say at this stage?

Even if we suffer no pay cuts from the top line, I expect more levies/taxes instead.

While I have a permanent job, anyone with 4 years service has acquired rights to a Contract of Indefinite Duration (CID) under the Fixed Term Workers Act. While acts like this are more applicable (insofar as they are applied) in the public sector, they are also applicable to the private sector.

I'm waiting for the targeted compulsory redundancy scheme to be announced on the internal net in the next few weeks.

 

[Leper]

How is it that in nearly every thread here the issue becomes Private Sector -V- Public Sector. As Maxwell Smart would say this is the old divide-and-conquer trick.

Also, there is a tendency here to blame "them out there" and not "us in here." The bottom line is the IMF are here. They are not here to negotiate they are here to tell all of us what they want done not what we want done.

 

[PaddyW]

Sorry, but you don't get away with 'end of' because it's just not true. We're not paying for public servants, we're paying for public services. Those who don't depend on public services are often very quick to find ways to dismantle them. Most Irish people see the value in public services and are prepared to pay for them.

The 'can't afford' arguement doesn't hold. We can easily afford decent public services with the right tax model. Let's get rid of the €11.4 billion in tax reliefs for middle and high earners for a start - then we can continue to provide decent public services for Irish people.

How come it is the services that will be cut in this budget then, rather than wages.

Interestingly, John Gormley seemed to think that they will begin to target these tax reliefs.

 

[Sunny]

Complainer, this €11.4 billion tax relief has been thrown around for a while now. Does anyone actually have a copy of the report that shows the breakdown of these reliefs? I have only heard a statement saying this money could be saved but no details.

 

[Sunny]

By the way interesting piece in the Irish Times today showing public sector pay in the South compared to the North. Without even discussing the rights or wrongs about the level of pay, isn't it interesting that the Guards were paid the same or less than their Northern Counterparts while politicans, civil servants, health and education workers were all paid significantly more.

So the next time a Trade Union says they played no part in this crisis, maybe they should ask themselves why is that the one section of the public service that is not represented by a trade union is the only part that is competitive compared to our nearest neighbour?

 

[Caveat]

I think my pension is okay, not great.

Well mine is crap - and it costs me 100s of € every month.

So the next time a Trade Union says they played no part in this crisis, maybe they should ask themselves why is that the one section of the public service that is not represented by a trade union is the only part that is competitive compared to our nearest neighbour?

Very good point.

 

[Shawady]

Sunny, I did not see article but my understanding is guards have very generous overtime and allowance payments. For example, I have heard that plain clothes guards get a 'plain clothes allowance'.
Maybe the core pay is comparable?

 

[Shawady]

And I agree with you on social welfare (incl pensions) - same thing - rates went up in the boomtime and they have to come back now - I don't appreciate the reluctance to reduce something that should never have been increased in the first place.

Do you include the old age pension in that?

I don't mind taking another pay cut if I thought it would help the economy but what frustrates me is the arguement used for cutting PS pay (we can't afford it, it was paid for with property boom taxes that are no longer there, it is much higher than our nearest neighbours) can be used for social welfare payments.
Yet there are many people that call for PS pay to be slashed but don't want to touch social welfare because it damages the 'most vulnerable in society.

I also think that the governments failure to have a stable source of income tax in the boom years is sometimes brushed under the carpet.

 

[orka]

Do you include the old age pension in that?

Yes. Anything that went up because we thought we were rolling in money should come back down now we know that we are not as rich as we thought. That is what’s fair to the tax payers

 

[orka]

Sorry, but you don't get away with 'end of' because it's just not true.

“the country can't afford to pay what it currently pays. End of.” This is absolutely true. Income 30B; expenditure 50B. No way on earth to get income back up to 50B in a short time frame – therefore expenditure must be cut. End of.

Those who don't depend on public services are often very quick to find ways to dismantle them.

We all depend on public services.

Most Irish people see the value in public services and are prepared to pay for them.

Most Irish people are prepared to pay a reasonable amount that the country can afford.

The 'can't afford' arguement doesn't hold.

30B in ... 50B out...

Let's get rid of the €11.4 billion in tax reliefs for middle and high earners for a start

This €11.4B is another of your (many) oft-quoted chestnuts. Do you know what is in the €11.4B? I do (because I bothered to look). Do you know that it includes €2.5B for the employee tax credit that exempts the first few thousand euros of income from tax? I would have thought this was more beneficial to low income earners than middle and high? I would be quite happy to see this go – thanks for the idea.
The €11B also includes €2.5B from the exemption of main homes (PPR) from CGT when they are sold. I can’t see the disappearance of this sitting well with the vast majority of people.
I've already said in another thread that I would be quite happy for pension reliefs (€3B) to go - preferably ALL of them - right up to charging BIK on TD/minister pension accrual.

 

[Complainer]

Nice try of a red herring there! Point out the nonsense please..
What you are failing to mention is that in the LAST few years as the private sector were losing jobs,not getting pay increases,not having job security,and taking a pay cut that the PS were and still are getting increments!And also compliments of the CP agreement no further cuts for the next four years..

The nonsense is your assumption that ALL salaries have dropped in the private sector - they haven't. The nonsense is your assumption that the private sector has a monopoly on job losses - they haven't. The nonsense is your assumption that parts of the private sector aren't continuing to do quite nicely thank you and are keeping their heads down to avoid attention (e.g. international financial services, pharmacueticals, software etc etc).

Complainer, this €11.4 billion tax relief has been thrown around for a while now. Does anyone actually have a copy of the report that shows the breakdown of these reliefs? I have only heard a statement saying this money could be saved but no details.

The recent press reports were based on the Commission of Taxation reports.

How come it is the services that will be cut in this budget then, rather than wages.

Because wages have already been cut, right across the board in the public sector.

Of course you are forgetting that they also have job security,a great pension,a guaranteed four years of no pay cuts, [...]

There must be a premium applied for the terms and conditions which the PS enjoy...

If you want to apply a premium, then you'll have to provide real job security. My public sector contract is pretty much the same as any private sector contract - I have no guarantee of job for life. I have no guarantee of 'great pension', as my public sector pension will be at the discretion of the Govt of the day. I have no guarantee of the Croke Park agreement, as any Govt can opt out under the 'conditions have changed' clause.

Did you receive them in the last two years?
You will also find that Dunnes Pennys Shaws etc are making a profit.Where is the money/profit in the PS?

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but the public sector is not about making money. It is about providing public services to all citizens - a basic building block of society.

Do you know that it includes €2.5B for the employee tax credit that exempts the first few thousand euros of income from tax? I would have thought this was more beneficial to low income earners than middle and high? I would be quite happy to see this go – thanks for the idea.
The €11B also includes €2.5B from the exemption of main homes (PPR) from CGT when they are sold. I can’t see the disappearance of this sitting well with the vast majority of people.

We can't afford it. End of. [That makes it all OK, doesn't it?]

Well mine is crap - and it costs me 100s of € every month.

Sorry to hear it is crap, but it leaves me a bit confused. We get repeatedly hectored and lectured here about the private sector, and how companies that sell crap products don't survive. How is it that you are paying €100s per month for a crap product. Surely it couldn't be the case that the free market isn't effective in providing great value for money for consumers? [I'm just wondering how it will take for somebody to blame crap pension products on public servants]