Are you legally obliged to pay management fees to a co looking after apartment cmplx?

[prech]

Re: Management Companies?

Please take rants to Letting Off Steam and stick to discussing the issue in hand. Thanks.

I thought i was, guess we differ on why we discuss things

I'm just pointing out that nobody is forced to buy in a development which is privately managed either short term (e.g. until the LA takes it in charge) or longer term (e.g. indefinitely).

Well why don't you point out a new dev in Dublin that doesn't have a mgnt fee intially. No choice equals forced....

 

[whackin]

Re: Management Companies?

I have to agree, it's like telling someone who complains about Bad Hospitals "Well nobody is forcing you to go o hospital!", it's a fairly stupid argument. It is almost impossible to find new developments that don't charge fees

 

[CCOVICH]

Re: Management Companies?

it's a fairly stupid argument. It is almost impossible to find new developments that don't charge fees

Who is arguing that you have to buy a new property?

And to use your example of the health service, would you want your development managed in the same way as the HSE??????

 

[ClubMan]

Re: Management Companies?

Who says that all new developments involve management fees - temporarily or indefinitely?

it's a fairly stupid argument

 

[whackin]

Re: Management Companies?

Who says that all new developments involve management fees - temporarily or indefinitely?

My apologies for that. It wasn't intended to cause offence.

 

[cnu]

Re: Management Companies?

Somewhere in the post it was said "Never sign anything that you dont understand" - Agreed and fully acknowledged.

Here is the scenario, you have been hoping to have your dream home the one u want, and you waited enough and all those patience...One fine morning your solictor calls you and says sign up the documents [you are expecting them to b the bank drafts or other non-management related docs ] and the solicitor says "This house is maintained by Management"....aaaah as a new buyer you'd have nooooooo clue what this management fees is about, but the excitement of getting the keys for your house is too high and you sign it off...

In short, what I mean to say is, this is the thing that management will take advantage off. In a fair game the EA should explain that this house has the management fees. Do they say it? Some of EA's say they'd get back and they NEVER get back to you. Its a sorry state. I think its not well communicated to the buyer. Am sure the Buyer will have a second thought once he is aware that the house comes with a management fees.

...my 2 cents

 

[ClubMan]

Re: Management Companies?

In short, what I mean to say is, this is the thing that management will take advantage off. In a fair game the EA should explain that this house has the management fees. Do they say it? Some of EA's say they'd get back and they NEVER get back to you. Its a sorry state. I think its not well communicated to the buyer.

I bought a house in 1995 and the EA clearly stated up front that the development (which is technically private but is not gated and has a public right of way through) would not be taken in charge by the LA, would be privately managed, that there was a management company of which the householders would be members/shareholders and that annual management fees would be payable (the first year on closing). Obviously my solicitor also pointed out these issues separately. Maybe this transparency was/is unusual but I would imagine that even with a basic level of "due diligence" the potential buyer will know in advance what the situation is with regard to management and fees.

 

[ITGuru]

Many members act as management company agents !

Many members speak about the management fee , as if they are management company agents. I dont mind paying a "Nominal Justifiable Fee" for the management of the estate to a management company.

Who is arguing that you have to buy a new property?

I dont think anyone "sane" would buy a 20 year old property for 360K when a new one is available for the same price.

Why? It's not their problem or concern that you or others decided to buy in a privately managed development and now, after the fact, don't like it.

Then what you think, the role of politicians is, in a democratic country?
Silently watch their people being exploited by greedy companies !

Well why don't you point out a new dev in Dublin that doesn't have a mgnt fee intially. No choice equals forced....

Could you tell me about at least one development without management fee? All the county councils have made it mandatory to have a management company to get the planning permission approved.

I am talking for people with average income. Members who supported the "hefty" management company fee here, might be millionanires who might have won a euro million recently!

 

[whackin]

Re: Management Companies?

I agree, while it is all very well to say you don't have to buy in an estate with managment fees it is completely counter-reality. If you are trying to buy your first home you don't have many options and you ahve to take what you are situation dictates. But surely that doesn't mean you don't have the right to complain about it afterwards? The management company issue is one which is a big issue for a lot of people and a simplistic "you should have have bought elsewhere" attitude really does not help things at all.

 

[ClubMan]

Re: Many members act as management company agents !

Many members speak about the management fee , as if they are management company agents.

I don't understand what you mean. Your terminology is confusing. See the definitions of management company and management agent/agency earlier in this thread and many others.

I dont mind paying a "Nominal Justifiable Fee" for the management of the estate to a management company.

Which would be...?

Then what you think, the role of politicians is, in a democratic country?
Silently watch their people being exploited by greedy companies !

Nobody is necessarily exploited here. People are free not to buy in a privately managed area if that arrangement does not suit them.

I am talking for people with average income. Members who supported the "hefty" management company fee here, might be millionanires who might have won a euro million recently!

Who here "supported a 'hefty' management company fee"? It might help if you argued your point based on what was actually posted here and not what you imagined was posted.

 

[ClubMan]

Re: Management Companies?

But surely that doesn't mean you don't have the right to complain about it afterwards?

Of course not but many people seem to act as if they are powerless pawns in these situations when, in fact, they are active principals in the legal agreement underpinning the management company. Also - moaning about them (the management company) and us (the poor householders) is missing the point in most cases since there is no "them" at all. If people don't like how their management company is operating then they should get actively involved to change matters rather than expecting the state to step in and act for them.

 

[CCOVICH]

Re: Many members act as management company agents !

I dont think anyone "sane" would buy a 20 year old property for 360K when a new one is available for the same price.

Nonsense. Having bought a new property previously, I would never do so again if I had the choice, and that has nothing to do with the existence of management companies.

Then what you think, the role of politicians is, in a democratic country?
Silently watch their people being exploited by greedy companies !

Take talk of politics to Letting Off Steam, where it belongs (when you have enough posts to do so).

I am talking for people with average income. Members who supported the "hefty" management company fee here, might be millionanires who might have won a euro million recently!

Far from it. I have bought a house. I will pay refuse charges, buildings insurance, cut my own grass, pay into a residents association to keep grass cut etc. There will be very little difference in what I pay when all that is added up vs. what I currently pay in management fees.

Like I said, it is completely unrealistic to assume that local authorities will take over the management of all private apartment developments we have in Ireland today.

There is an article in today's Irish Times on management companies and two forthcoming reports from the Law Society and the National Consumer Agency. The thrust of the article was that the key issue is the handing over of developments to the owners, and this would be my concern, not the existence of a management company and payment of fees.

And the article refers to a development (Castlecurragh-Blanchardstown) where Fingal County Council took the estate in charge when the residents refused to pay their management fees. Happy days? Not quite. The estate in question was developed by the council in a PPP with the developer, not a common situation. And, to quote ".....the council is adamnant that there will continue to be a service charge, albeit reduced. It appears that if the residents want the landscaped areas tended to properly, they will have to pay for it themselves"


So do people really believe that modern, large scale, apartment developments could be run without (a) a management company and related fees; and (b) an appointed agent to run the development day-to-day?

 

[Guest107]

Re: Management Companies?

Of course not but many people seem to act as if they are powerless pawns in these situations when, in fact, they are active principals in the legal agreement underpinning the management company.

Many ARE powerless pawns . The developer has gets outs where he does not form the management company such as when he holds onto one apartment out of 200.

Then there IS no management company in ewffect and the developer can charge what he likes to empty the bins and hire himself as agent at extortionate rates and tough **** on you, the purchaser.

Where the developer has gone and left a proper finished estate in the hands of the owners its different of course .

The law in Ireland is pathetic on this but seeing as the same politicians cannot provide schools either whats surprising ???

 

[CCOVICH]

Re: Management Companies?

Then there IS no management company in ewffect and the developer can charge what he likes to empty the bins and hire himself as agent at extortionate rates and tough **** on you, the purchaser.

That is a fair point, and I won't stand up for developers lining their own pockets by charging extortionate fees to manage the development. As said previously however, in don't think that this is the case everywhere. Where an independent agent is appointed, the owners generally benefit.

Where the developer has gone and left a proper finished estate in the hands of the owners its different of course

And let's hope that the process will be speeded up on foot of forthcoming reports and possibly new legislation.

 

[sarahw]

Re: Management Companies?

Amazed that people buy in private dev. and don't understand what they have commited to, poor legal advice?.any shareholder(owner)can be proposed at agm to become a director of to mgt. company,a board of directors can appoint new managing agents if they wish to.Stop moaning and get involved, and begin to examine issues like budget,sinking fund

 

[Guest107]

Re: Management Companies?

People who buy into a Management Company should be income taxed 10% extra to force them to do a "Management Company Driving Test" and pass it in full .

Then they get their tax money back, until then they are guilty of being muppets and we should be Darwinian here If you think you are too thick to pass it go buy somewhere else.

 

[ClubMan]

Re: Management Companies?

I moved this thread from Mortgages and Home Buying to Great Financial Debates but it's looking like a further move to Letting Off Steam may be on the cards soon due to the stuff being posted by some...

 

[exile]

Re: Management Companies?

Why are the people who have never had any trouble with management companies so annoyed with the people who have? If I'm giving someone advice in my area of expertise, I don't start by getting annoyed with the person who doesn't understand the area and tell them they should've known better before they got into the situation.

People buying new houses are often going to be novices and definitely pre-occupied with other things. They're not going to sit down with the solicitor and say "Tell me every last thing that could turn out to be a headache in the next two years or so..."

Just because there are things they CAN do doesn't mean they should be put in the position in the first place. It would seem that a little bit of regulation regarding management companies/agents wouldn't go amiss. Why direct the anger at the exploited instead of the exploiters?

In what other situation would you consider with-holding payment to be a last resort? It seems the most natural reaction if no service is received.

 

[room305]

Re: Management Companies?

Stop moaning and get involved, and begin to examine issues like budget,sinking fund

Almost 40% of management companies are trading illegally - not filing accounts, insolvent etc. When people see nothing being done by the maintenance company they stop paying maintenance, which in turn guarantees the maintenance company can no longer maintain the area even if they wanted to.

However, many posters here seem to think it is a simple matter to fire the existing directors and appoint new ones and then find a new property management company to manage the running of the estate. Speaking as someone going through this process at the moment I can tell you it most certainly isn't.

 

[CCOVICH]

Re: Management Companies?

Why are the people who have never had any trouble with management companies so annoyed with the people who have? If I'm giving someone advice in my area of expertise, I don't start by getting annoyed with the person who doesn't understand the area and tell them they should've known better before they got into the situation.

People buying new houses are often going to be novices and definitely pre-occupied with other things. They're not going to sit down with the solicitor and say "Tell me every last thing that could turn out to be a headache in the next two years or so..."

Just because there are things they CAN do doesn't mean they should be put in the position in the first place. It would seem that a little bit of regulation regarding management companies/agents wouldn't go amiss. Why direct the anger at the exploited instead of the exploiters?

In what other situation would you consider with-holding payment to be a last resort? It seems the most natural reaction if no service is received.

Nobody is getting annoyed-if someome has a specifc complaint and have taken this to the management company/agent and got nowhere-let's hear it?

And yes, there are lots of things to worry about when buying a house, but buyers should take their time and think of what happens 2 years down the line-buying property is a big step and not to be taken lightly. Any solicitors I have come accross do explain management compaines when the contracts are being signed (before which you can pull out without penalty), so most buyers are made aware of it before they buy.

And yes, regulation would be welcome, if it gets the development into the hands of the owners sooner rather than later.

And if someone is receiving absolutley no service, i.e. no bins being emptied, block insurance lapsing, electricity in hallways going, lifts not being maintained, then yes, by all means you should not be paying management fees.

But I have not heard anyone saying they are getting nothing for their management fees.