Another General Election

[odyssey06]

Has anyone seen or heard from Enda?. Is it a deliberate policy of FG to keep him quiet in case he makes another faux pax or is it another example of Enda acting arrogantly and thinking he is above all of this?. He is still the Taoiseach and should be talking to the nation about what is going on, not wheeling out spokespeople. I got the impression from listening to FF last night that part of their problem is that they go into a meeting with Enda who says one thing, then Coveney and Leo come out and say something different. Who is actually running FG and is this politics and postioning within FG?

I think FG are dreading another election with Enda as leader, he's a lame duck leader right now of both the country and the party ... That's why it's the "next generation" who seem to be doing all the running right now.
The vibe I'm getting is that the party would like a new face before the electorate next time out ... Enda is seen as a political liability; but if the Dail is dissolved without a government being formed they wouldn't have enough time I think (or would they?) to change leaders so it would be Enda again.
I suppose in theory Enda could be caretaker Taoiseach while FG gets a new leader?

ps there's a lot of "I think", "I suppose" and "vibes" in this post so anyone closer to FG or with a better clue of their leadership election process please jump in.

 

[Sophrosyne]

This is Alison O’Connor’s take on the current political stalemate:


ALISON O'CONNOR: Cute-hoorism, political botox and one eye to next general election

"Does Micheál Martin not see the irony in all this big talk of Dáil reform, all the while shirking what would be the biggest reform of all — a coalition with Fine Gael, writes Alison O’Connor

What a charade Fianna Fáil is carrying on with at present. When you see the outraged political virgin act they’ve taken to pedalling it’s hard to know whether to laugh or bang your head against a wall.

You would think we all came down in the last shower and there before us was this delicate political flower, full of injured innocence; all overwhelmed by the pressure it is being put under by the mean big boys. Come on. This is just too hard to take.

These FF guys would buy and sell the lot of us, so it’s a very hard swallow to hear their squealing about unfair tactics and how seriously they take their mandate. As the time has gone on since the general election it has felt like we’re being fed a load of rhetorical manure.

Nobody does a better altar boy impression that Micheal Martin and only he could have stood in the Dáil on Wednesday and said the priority of others had been “power rather than policy”.

He decried the “spin and hype” which has been circulating since the election and the “never-ending stream of unattributed comments designed to influence perception rather than fairly reflect reality”, which had further damaged politics.

There could be no trust and no real change if this approach to politics continued, he thundered.

The “briefings and manipulation” of opinion has to stop if there is to be any reasonable prospect of moving things forward.” Lol, as the youngsters would say.

After all it is Fianna Fáil who wrote the full manual when it comes to all of these approaches, and, as we saw from the masterful general election campaign, they have certainly not lost their touch.

The FF’ers are raging at FG coming out last week and ruling out supporting a minority FF Government. They claim to be fuming at what they see as the utter arrogance of this. But this is how the numbers stack up.

It’s the same in how FF keep insisting that they got a particular mandate in the election and that does not involve coalition with Fine Gael. Actually this is simply how they have chosen to interpret this mandate."


She does not absolve FG either, but claims it is less adept at political cute-hoorism.

 

[noproblem]

Ms O Connor gives us her opinion of what's happening and seems to think her opinion is exactly what the rest of the country is thinking. God bless her, but her article lacks any sort of depth or indeed analysis. A bit sad really when so called journalists of standing, gives us, the reader, a piece like that article. Why would she not try and get an interview with Mr Martin, ask him some serious questions, get him to back up his version of events, etc, etc. He was given backing from followers based on FF having nothing to do with going into bed with our so called disastrous Taoiseach and FG, maybe she has blinkers on or does not understand politics or how it works, but that's the reality. Why does she not question FG's adamant refusal to back a minority FF goverment? even though FF will facilitate a FG led minority. Amazing bias indeed and a very school girlish version of events in her piece. Enda's and FG's arrogance over the past 5 years is evident in Allison's own arrogant article. Perhaps she missed her vocation?????

 

[Delboy]

I think it's called an 'Opinion piece'...hence no interview with your esteemed Mr Martin

 

[noproblem]

I think it's called an 'Opinion piece'...hence no interview with your esteemed Mr Martin

Not my esteemed Mr Martin at all, just pointing out her amateurish attempt to write a political piece. One of my good friends happens to be a FG junior minister and I can assure you there's turmoil in FG over Kenny, the party cannot wait for him to GO and he's well aware of it. In my humble opinion, the people of Ireland would be delighted with that decision too.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yes this in an Opinion piece. I have fixed the link in # 42 to the full article.

She also says:

"God knows I’m not buying the FG rhetoric of acting wholly in the interest of the country. It’s approach to re-election showed just how out of touch it was with so many people. Everything Enda Kenny does now has to be tinged with a serious dose of self preservation."

I certainly would not consider Alison O'Connor to be politically ignorant or naive.

 

[Purple]

I certainly would not consider Alison O'Connor to be politically ignorant or naive.

Her piece was strongly anti-FF. There's no avoiding that. It was an opinion piece so that's fine. She shouldn't have dressed it up as political analysis as it's more a bar stool monologue.

 

[cork]

She shouldn't have dressed it up as political analysis as it's more a bar stool monologue.

Fills paper - Irish examiner loves opinion pieces.

It has Terry Phone, Gerard Howlin & Fergus Finlay as well - never mentioning their past political associations underneath their respective articles.

 

[Gerry Canning]

FG & FF , have to get their heads around the obvious fact that coalition type arrangements are turning into the NEW government norm.
Both are petrified that whichever of them are perceived as (minor) parties will suffer the fate of Labour Party or the Greens.
Both are trying to position themselves into a space where both can hold their core voters.

Whichever ends up getting most blame for forcing another election will lose seats.
Or whichever ends propping up an unpopular government and or said government falls , who gets hammered?

As an ordinary voter , I strongly believe that whichever takes a strong line on housing & a longer term sorting of health will show leadership and do well.
Faffing about as they now are doing irritates .!

 

[dereko1969]

I hope all those that voted Independent now see the error of their ways, doubt it though.

 

[Purple]

As an ordinary voter , I strongly believe that whichever takes a strong line on housing & a longer term sorting of health will show leadership and do well.
Faffing about as they now are doing irritates .!

A strong position on housing, in our populist political reality, means opposing the very sensible rules on borrowing put in place by the Central Bank.

Populism is what drives Irish politics and as most people don’t understand how the supply and demand of both housing and credit influences prices the following utterly incorrect beliefs are held by the majority of people;

1) Reducing interest rates will make property more affordable. (It won’t, it will make it more money available for the same housing stock and so make it more expensive).

2) Relaxing the Central Bank’s loan rules will make property more affordable. (It won’t, it will make more money available for the same housing stock and so make it more expensive).

3) Taxing Landlords doesn’t increase rents. (Of course it does; businesses have to at least not make a loss and so their costs impact on their price).


If the government want to fix the housing crisis they need to find a way to make the construction sector competitive. The best way is to get large firms from outside Ireland to do the building probably using the superior quality factory built homes which are the norm in most of the rest of Europe.

It also needs to stop taxing renters by proxy through their landlords.


As for Health, well, who is going to say; “Forget about increasing the Healthcare budget; stop wasting money and by the way everyone in the system is part of the problem including doctors and nurses because if they aren’t then they can’t be part of the solution.”


No, populism will continue to reign supreme. The only thing that is up for debate is who will be blamed when the wheels fall off the next time.

 

[odyssey06]

It also needs to stop taxing renters by proxy through their landlords.

I agree largely with everything in previous post, but I don't get this.
I don't see what material difference it should make to the LPT what the setup of the property is.
The payments made to LPT aren't deductible by owner occupiers.
I don't see why having the relationship as one between landlord and tenant should change that.

If LPT accurately reflects the cost of living in that area, then if rents have to take a bump to pay for it so be it.
If we make LPT, which is a tax, counter tax-deductible, in the end we'll be getting less LPT revenue and will have to raise the LPT rates.

 

[Purple]

I agree largely with everything in previous post, but I don't get this.
I don't see what material difference it should make to the LPT what the setup of the property is.
The payments made to LPT aren't deductible by owner occupiers.
I don't see why having the relationship as one between landlord and tenant should change that.

If LPT accurately reflects the cost of living in that area, then if rents have to take a bump to pay for it so be it.
If we make LPT, which is a tax, counter tax-deductible, in the end we'll be getting less LPT revenue and will have to raise the LPT rates.

Landlords have to pay income tax on 25% of the cost of their borrowings. For example if the interest element of their mortgage repayment is €600 a month only €450 is allowable as an expense. Therefore €150 is taxable. At the marginal rate that’s around €75. That €75 goes onto the rent so if the tenant is also taxed at the higher rate they have to earn €150 to pay it.


Losses and Capital allowances are also ignored when calculating the amount of USC which is charged on rental income. That is another cost which will be passed onto the tenant.


Between these two items they can account for 10% of the rent charged for a property.

 

[odyssey06]

Landlords have to pay income tax on 25% of the cost of their borrowings. For example if the interest element of their mortgage repayment is €600 a month only €450 is allowable as an expense. Therefore €150 is taxable. At the marginal rate that’s around €75. That €75 goes onto the rent so if the tenant is also taxed at the higher rate they have to earn €150 to pay it.

Thanks for the steer.
Ah ok, so because their rental income is taxed at that rate, if the rental income has to rise to cover the cost of the LPT tax then there is a corresponding hit in terms of what they have to pay in tax? Is that it?

 

[Purple]

Thanks for the steer.
Ah ok, so because their rental income is taxed at that rate, if the rental income has to rise to cover the cost of the LPT tax then there is a corresponding hit in terms of what they have to pay in tax? Is that it?

It's not about LTP. It's about the fact that unlike every other business Landlords have to pay tax on some of their gross income rather than just their net income.

Local Property Tax is meant to pay for local services. The renter consumes those local services. The Landlord does not. The reason the Landlord is charged is because Revenue know that they will get the money from the Landlord and may not get it from the Tenant. The net effect is the same though; the tenant pays it through their rent.

Edit: I'm a tenant.

 

[odyssey06]

It's not about LTP. It's about the fact that unlike every other business Landlords have to pay tax on some of their gross income rather than just their net income. Local Property Tax is meant to pay for local services. The renter consumes those local services. The Landlord does not. The reason the Landlord is charged is because Revenue know that they will get the money from the Landlord and may not get it from the Tenant. The net effect is the same though; the tenant pays it through their rent. Edit: I'm a tenant.

I'm agnostic on the "consumes the services" aspects. If you own a property in the area then I think it could be argued you are consuming those local services. You can't just drive the property somewhere else.

But actually, I was thinking more along the lines that the net effect isn't the same... What I mean is, if the Landlord increases the rent per year by the cost of the LPT, do they then have a correspondingly higher rental income liability? So there's kinda double taxation going on of LPT and rental income?

 

[Purple]

But actually, I was thinking more along the lines that the net effect isn't the same... What I mean is, if the Landlord increases the rent per year by the cost of the LPT, do they then have a correspondingly higher rental income liability? So there's kinda double taxation going on of LPT and rental income?

Good point.

 

[odyssey06]

I hope all those that voted Independent now see the error of their ways, doubt it though.

Why? The Independents are willing to work to form a government, it's not their fault that the FF and FG numbers are so low that even with their support it's a minority.
If the numbers had been closer, an Independent TD's voice would be a lot more important than any FF or FG backbencher.

 

[Delboy]

Why? The Independents are willing to work to form a government

I don't think they are. They seem to be trying to straddle 2 horses so to be sure to back a winner at the finish line.
And it's very apparent that some of them will stick with their old tribe regardless of what the other major party proposes in a plan for Govt.

 

[Delboy]

A strong position on housing, in our populist political reality, means opposing the very sensible rules on borrowing put in place by the Central Bank.

Or it could mean tackling the high cost of housing, bringing down prices for all buyers.
Lets have a referendum on property rights- surely we can draft something that allows for the pricing of development land, that stops hoarding of same etc? We have had referendi for a lot less serious subjects