€95m in budget for animal racing industries

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arbitron

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Government approves €95 million in funding for greyhound and horse racing industries​

This is hard to comprehend. Almost a 9-figure sum doled out to what can most generously be described as "entertainment" groups.

There are animal welfare concerns. There are huge social issues around gambling. Why are taxpayers propping up these hobbies?

Matty McGrath and Michael Lowry talking about the importance to rural Ireland... are they really saying the government should continue subsidising Thurles racecourse to keep people in jobs?
 
Going on for years and some of the excellent rescues are on their knees at the moment, bursting at the seams with dogs, many of them greyhounds retired from the greyhound industry. Many of the rescues have to send greyhounds to Sweden, Italy etc. because they are overproduced here every year. Some of the smaller rescues also get very little contributions from the Government and still they take in these poor dogs.

The excellent RTE Investigates programme: Greyhounds running for their lives says it all :mad:
 
Horse racing is one of the largest employers in the country, Depending on what report you look at, the figures employed range from 14000 to 30000 (I do think the later is is totally overstated by the way). I know where I grew up in rural Ireland I could name a half a dozen trainers of various sizes employing between 5 and 20 people within 5 miles of my home. Aside from farming, in parts of Ireland, it is probably one of the biggest employers.

As for gambling, then you could say the same about grant aiding every sport. Why does the GAA get a grant when it's matches can be bet on, same applies to the FAI and the IRFU? The issue on grants for horse racing is less to do with supporting horse racing and more to do with the unfettered oversight of gambling in Ireland. Gambling and lack of control and regulation is the issue.

As for animal welfare, horses are expensive and most trainers and owners treat their animals with respect. There are exceptions, I full accept that and there have been issues but the same is true of animal ownership anywhere, whether it is as pets or for profit.

Greyhound racing on the other hand is one I would have concerns about supporting. The average attendance in Youghal track last year was 18. More dogs then people so you have to wonder, does greyhound racing exist purely for gambling and the answer is probably yes. Dogs are also more considering consumables by a lot of trainers then assets.
 
thedaddyman said:
Horse racing is one of the largest employers in the country, Depending on what report you look at, the figures employed range from 14000 to 30000 (I do think the later is is totally overstated by the way). I know where I grew up in rural Ireland I could name a half a dozen trainers of various sizes employing between 5 and 20 people within 5 miles of my home. Aside from farming, in parts of Ireland, it is probably one of the biggest employers.
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Surely the fact that it is so big should mean it doesn't need tens of millions in taxpayer subsidies?

thedaddyman said:
As for gambling, then you could say the same about grant aiding every sport. Why does the GAA get a grant when it's matches can be bet on, same applies to the FAI and the IRFU? The issue on grants for horse racing is less to do with supporting horse racing and more to do with the unfettered oversight of gambling in Ireland. Gambling and lack of control and regulation is the issue.
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Racing and gambling have a much bigger direct link than sports and gambling (although that is huge also). You go racing and there are bookies everywhere. You see kids going to the Tote counter with their parents. That doesn't happen with sports.

GAA, rugby, etc. play an important role in keeping people fit, giving children team-playing and leadership skills, and can contribute a lot to local communities. Racing does not give the same personal and social benefits. I wouldn't watch a football/soccer match if you paid me but I am happy for my taxes to support local clubs.
 
Equating the livestock industry with the problems of gambling is like introducing minimum pricing of alcohol to wipe out alcoholism. We have more drunkeness in our streets in Cork since minimum pricing. Even alcohol related violence in or streets has increased. Ireland's gambling problems are worse than stated and a compulsive gambler can be in serious financial trouble within seconds of gambling on his/her mobile phone.

I visit the bookies every week (Wednesday and Saturday) for a free read of the Racing Post and my weekly betting outlay including lotto is €20 - Hardly god's gift to the bookies. Never do I exceed the €20. I bet on Horse Racing, GAA, Soccer, Golf and occasionally on Eurovision. For fun I keep a spreadsheet on all my betting outlay and my X-Channel football bets have shown a profit in each of the past twenty years. While I bet only occasionally on Golf my small ventures here show a profit too (hence my interest in the Racing Post on Wednesdays). My GAA betting shows my biggest profit. But, the lot is wiped out by my losses in National Hunt Racing which is my favourite betting. I admit I have loss every year because of my National Hunt bets. But the loss is minimal and I get some fun along the way. For the record my worst percentage loss over each year has been Lotto (taking all small wins into account).

I have no problem with the livestock industry receiving grants. It is a huge employer and part of our heritage. I could name several areas where millions were donated by the government who don't deserve a penny.

Do I have sympathy with compulsive gamblers? - Yes, and I have more sympathy with their families. Can I eradicate the problem? - No. And better people than I have tried. But, that discussion is for another forum.
 
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Leper said:
I have no problem with the livestock industry receiving grants. It is a huge employer and part of our heritage.
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Why does it need big grants? Why is it unable to sustain itself?

Being part of our heritage doesn't make it worthwhile by default and certainly isn't an argument for massive public spending. We are talking about animals running around in circles, not a great artistic or intellectual endeavour unique to Ireland.

If we are going to be communists and use taxes to create jobs for the sake of employment then why not use that money to hire 3,000 new healthcare assistants to help older people stay in their own homes? That would give long term employment in pensionable jobs, support vulnerable people and their families, open up beds in hospitals and nursing homes, and no taxpayer money is going to gambling megacorps or zillionaire stud owners.
 
arbitron said:
Why does it need big grants? Why is it unable to sustain itself?
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I don't know, I'm a former low grade Public Service worker not an expert of finance. But, next time I meet a Senior Member of any of the Main Banks and I'll ask him (not likely to be a her), I'll ask why the banks needed to be bailed out by the Irish taxpayer.
 
arbitron said:
Surely the fact that it is so big should mean it doesn't need tens of millions in taxpayer subsidies?



Racing and gambling have a much bigger direct link than sports and gambling (although that is huge also). You go racing and there are bookies everywhere. You see kids going to the Tote counter with their parents. That doesn't happen with sports.

GAA, rugby, etc. play an important role in keeping people fit, giving children team-playing and leadership skills, and can contribute a lot to local communities. Racing does not give the same personal and social benefits. I wouldn't watch a football/soccer match if you paid me but I am happy for my taxes to support local clubs.
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In terms of size, you could say the same about any large industry in Ireland yet most get some grant of some sort, in a lot of cases, to encourage employment.

The link between racing and gambling has always been there. The real gambling problem is not at the bookies at leapordstown, it's the apps. I had a quick look at Paddy Powers just now and I could place a bet on Australian and Indonesian soccer, Dubai and Turkish tennis, at 9am on a Monday morning. Most of the bookies at the racecourse are self-employed small businesses, the damage is done to people by the multinationals.

As for a social contribution, go to a rural point to point some Sunday. Most rural parishes in East Cork/West Waterford have one every year and it's a huge day out for the parish and a great reconnecting day. You'll literally get thousands of people at them, more then at most club GAA matches. It's the main day out in the winter in large parts of rural Ireland. Walk into the Bucket Inn pub in West Limerick or the Baegnel Inn in leighlinbridge in Carlow and it's not just photos of the local GAA teams on the wall, it;s photos of racehorses.
 
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I enjoy racing - we really punch above our weight in that. I enjoy betting on horses though not as heavily as @Leper. But surely the €95m is in breach of EU State aid rules. The Brits are the main losers as many English owners choose to have their horses based in Ireland for the better prize money, but then they can't use EU rules against us. :)
I guess we play the industry card for domestic purposes - increased employment etc. - but play the supporting sport/culture card with the EU.
 
State Aid cannot support anti-competetive matters but there are exceptions where the positive effects outweigh the negative. It's no real difference then grant aiding the FAI or the IRFU.

As for the €25m (which, incidentally, some NGO's are saying is the same €25m we had promised previously), horse racing, due to it's low intensity farming, would have a much lower environmental impact then dairy or beef
 
redstar said:
Priorities really...

95m for animal racing
25m to reduce the effects of climate change (COP28)
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The government is spending multiples of that on climate change, reducing emissions, switching over energy production, home energy changes etc etc
 
thedaddyman said:
State Aid cannot support anti-competetive matters but there are exceptions where the positive effects outweigh the negative. It's no real difference then grant aiding the FAI or the IRFU.
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There is a difference. Nobody's going to complain that State aid is giving Irish Rugby an unfair competitive edge in the sport. There are considerable complaints from English trainers that Irish prize money is giving their rivals in Ireland a considerable commercial edge in the industry.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
There is a difference. Nobody's going to complain that State aid is giving Irish Rugby an unfair competitive edge in the sport. There are considerable complaints from English trainers that Irish prize money is giving their rivals in Ireland a considerable commercial edge in the industry.
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The English are complaining about it. It is giving Irish Rugby an advantage, look at the amount of English clubs that have collapsed in the last 18 months, Worcester, London Irish, Jersey to name but 3 and the likelihood is there will be more.. Look at the abject failings of Scotland and Wales at underage level.

Plenty of Irish trainers complain about the lack of prize money in Irish racing and the costs here are significantly higher.
 
thedaddyman said:
The English are complaining about it. It is giving Irish Rugby an advantage, look at the amount of English clubs that have collapsed in the last 18 months, Worcester, London Irish, Jersey to name but 3 and the likelihood is there will be more.. Look at the abject failings of Scotland and Wales at underage level.
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The fact that the English RFU and the English Premiership compete with each other is the problem there. Their argument is that they have rubbish structures so we should have rubbish structures as well. The fact is that Irish Rugby is well supported with average attendances similar to those in England but with better sponsorship and better structures.
 
Purple said:
The fact is that Irish Rugby is well supported with average attendances similar to those in England but with better sponsorship and better structures.
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We also have fewer individuals (club owners) trying to use it as a vehicle for personal gain.
 
Whatever about horse racing and I have issues with that but greyhound racing? It functions purely for gambling. It was fashionable for corporate night out a while back but even that has stopped. Why are taxpayers giving millions to that? And it has nothing to do with rural Ireland..
 
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