Why (the state) bailing out housing market is a bad idea..mcwilliams indo article

Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

I remember McWilliams probably 12 years ago sayign that house prices in Dublin are grossly overvalued. I did nt listen to him then, thank God. He had to get it right at some stage if he kept banging on. And just to be clear, im listening to David now, and so should everyone else.

By the way, iirc McWilliams was not even living in Ireland 12 years ago let alone featuring in the media. He did say around 1998 that property in Ireland was overvalued at the time relative to other economies. He was correct in saying so. The fact that the irrational exuberance continued for another decade afterwards does not necessarily alter that fact.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

By the way, iirc McWilliams was not even living in Ireland 12 years ago let alone featuring in the media. He did say around 1998 that property in Ireland was overvalued at the time relative to other economies. He was correct in saying so. The fact that the irrational exuberance continued for another decade afterwards does not necessarily alter that fact.

Have you ever heard of air travel. I am telling you I saw him on the late late. He was comparing the Irish housing market to that of Isreal and saying a crash was coming and advising people not to buy. Ok so it may have been ten years ago. Point is if you keep banging away at something for long enough it eventually will come true. Does nto make him an economic guru however, and I would take his advice with a pinch of salt. Of course he is right now about the housing market. But this crash has alot to do with huge rise in oil, american credit crunch, gradual increase in european interest rates, none of which mcwilliams forsaw, hes now happy to sit back and say he told you so.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

I think it was keynes that said 'Markets can remain irrational far longer than you can remain solvent'.

Basically the Irish property market has been irrational for a very long time. Someone pointing out that it was overvalued relevant to other ecopnomies were probably correct. However as the speculative bubble gained pace it became nmore and more irrational. If 'shorting' the Irish property market had been possible they'd have lost a great deal of money. In the long run the bet may well have paid off but margin calls etc could have bankrupted the bettor in the mean time.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

But this crash has alot to do with huge rise in oil, american credit crunch, gradual increase in european interest rates, none of which mcwilliams forsaw, hes now happy to sit back and say he told you so.

Not correct. McWilliams repeatedly warned over the years about the dangers faced by Ireland by losing control of our interest rate policies and being tied into interest rates set by the Germans and French, whose economic cycle is radically different to ours. When we joined the Eurozone he predicted that our interest rates would be too low in boom times and too high in recession times. He also repeatedly predicted the credit crunch by saying that the global rises in property values were unsustainable and would eventually cause serious problems for the banking system.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

Not correct. McWilliams repeatedly warned over the years about the dangers faced by Ireland by losing control of our interest rate policies and being tied into interest rates set by the Germans and French, whose economic cycle is radically different to ours.

Aggreed I stand corrected.


When we joined the Eurozone he predicted that our interest rates would be too low in boom times and too high in recession times. He also repeatedly predicted the credit crunch by saying that the global rises in property values were unsustainable and would eventually cause serious problems for the banking system.[/quote]

Wheres your proof for this.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

I think it was keynes that said 'Markets can remain irrational far longer than you can remain solvent'.

In the long run property is a pretty safe bet. I think it was me who said that. The doom and gloom merchants are having their day now but in ten years time if you can afford to hold on property in Ireland is as safe as houses. Not saying that gives much support to the people who bought at the top of the market, but its a fact.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

I'm sure you will find plenty of proof of this if you have the time and inclination to trawl through his SBP column archive online. McWilliams repeatedly made a point of citing the Japanese boom/bust as an example of how debt and and inflated property market could do serious harm to the Irish economy and its banks.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

In the long run property is a pretty safe bet. I think it was me who said that. The doom and gloom merchants are having their day now but in ten years time if you can afford to hold on property in Ireland is as safe as houses. Not saying that gives much support to the people who bought at the top of the market, but its a fact.

It isn't a fact it is an opinion.
There have plenty of examples around the world where over a 10 year period property has been a terrible investment.

I would say after the largest property bubble the world has ever seen the next 10 maybe even 15 years will be worse than any other 10 year period.
My bet is that nominal prices will not return to 2006 until after 2016.
I think it will be the worst performing asset class over over that period.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

Wheres your proof for this.
[broken link removed]

Ireland looks like Japan before the bubble burst
Sunday, October 29, 2000
David McWilliams

Can a highly competitive economy with record export growth and growing international market share go into a slump? It certainly can. Japan is now in its tenth year of economic stagnation, banks are still filing for bankruptcy and, throughout the economy, bad debts continue to rise.
....

Japan of the late 1980s was experiencing a huge asset price boom and stocks were going through the roof, allowing Japanese companies to buy trophy assets abroad such as the Rockefeller Centre and MGM. Bulging Japanese banks dwarfed their European and US counterparts and threatened to dominate in the City and Wall Street. Most spectacular of all was the Tokyo property market. In 1990, the land upon which the imperial palace in Tokyo was built was valued at more than the entire real estate of Canada, the second largest country in the world.

So what went wrong? Why is Japan down in the dumps and why did the world's most awesome economic power crumble in a matter of a few years? More interestingly, if global competitiveness is so important, how come Japan continued to have the world's largest trade surplus, never dropping a notch in competitiveness throughout the 1990s, and still manage to experience a domestic depression? Finally, should we therefore entertain the prospect of a "competitive recession"?

There are three broad reasons put forward to explain the persistent Japanese slump despite huge government spending, a collapsed currency and low interest rates. The first focuses on the banks. It is argued that because the banks lent hand over fist to finance property and share transactions, they were left with huge bad loans and are practically bankrupt. They are now in no position to lend new cash. Thus the supply of credit is a problem.

....
In Japan, two economies operated side by side. Alongside the high-productivity, high-tech exporting sector was a slow, corrupt, uncompetitive domestic services economy. Unfortunately, this latter sector and its employees believed the miracle story and spent as if they were all working for Sony, Hitachi or Mitsubishi. The banks lent huge amounts to the property market and commercial developers were seen as the best bet.

Things started to go pear-shaped with the mini US recession of the Bush years. Sadly, when the bubble finally burst, people in the low-productivity services sector who had seen their wages rise steadily, realised too late that their houses were built of sand. When hard times hit, the domestic economy was neither solvent nor sufficiently innovative to recover. Japan's exporting sector continued to be a world beater, notching up a trade surplus of $125 billion this year alone. But the tired, indebted, domestic economy -- which employs the vast majority of people -- has never recovered and remains insecure and depressed.

Therefore, economic statistics on things such as export growth are "virtual" in that they are of no relevance whatsoever to the life of a man facing 20 years of negative equity. What scares me is that the Japanese model of two economies fits Ireland. This week I visited IBM, one of the world's leading high-tech companies and one of the biggest employers in North West Dublin. Getting to IBM's futuristic campus by 9am demanded an arduous journey across Dublin at peak traffic hours.

The journey was like passing through one world to arrive at another. My taxi, which arrived one hour late and took over an hour and a half to get to Mulhuddart, sneaked its way through a rainy city reminiscent of Caracas with little public transport and full of traffic, fumes, beggars and stressed drivers fit to be tied. I arrived in a tranquil, clean, modern world -- more Southern Ontario than South America. Here the productivity miracle can be seen in operation where educated workers are doing their stuff.

However, in the evening these workers return, as if through some invisible border, to the overpriced, uncompetitive, rip-off economy where people are borrowing like there's no tomorrow, the infrastructure is creaking and industrial unrest is the order of the day.

Today's Ireland looks, smells and feels like Japan in the late 1980s Japan. Every time I see the excellent "Take five @ £200,000" piece in the Irish Times property section, in which a two up, two down in Stoneybatter costs as much as a chateau in Provence, I think of Tokyo's imperial palace and Canada around 1990.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

It isn't a fact it is an opinion.
There have plenty of examples around the world where over a 10 year period property has been a terrible investment.

I would say after the largest property bubble the world has ever seen the next 10 maybe even 15 years will be worse than any other 10 year period.
My bet is that nominal prices will not return to 2006 until after 2016.
I think it will be the worst performing asset class over over that period.

Your forgetting one simple thing. The law of supply and demand. Population of ireland set to double in 30 years. Need I say more. 3 more years of stagnation followed by decent growth.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

Your forgetting one simple thing. The law of supply and demand. Population of ireland set to double in 30 years. Need I say more. 3 more years of stagnation followed by decent growth.

I understand the law of supply and demand.
But I don't see how a doubling of the population leads to increased prices for houses.
Yes, demand will rises as the population increases but why are you assuming that the supply won't increase in line with this? So yur are using the law of demand. It's not as if we have no land to build on?

What is your source for this dramatic population increase? Is it based on huge inward immigration?
Have you considered the availability of credit over the next 5 years in your estimates?

IMO Property prices will NOT beat inflation over the next 15 years because if they do very few will be able to afford a property.
We binged on credit for too long and now we have to face the consequences
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

Your forgetting one simple thing. The law of supply and demand. Population of ireland set to double in 30 years. Need I say more. 3 more years of stagnation followed by decent growth.

Demographics was one of the reasons put forward to explain house price increases and why prices would never fall dramatically in this country. You can't just look at population numbers by themselves without taking into account factors like mobility and employment etc.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

IMO Property prices will NOT beat inflation over the next 15 years because if they do very few will be able to afford a property.
We binged on credit for too long and now we have to face the consequences

If you bought at the top of the market then perhaps. Another thing is that yes supply will increase but land amounts are finate. especially in cities. And even if we build up which I doubt, there will always be a market for houses with a guarden in the future. Maybe I am being nieve but I am pretty sure I will be right in the long run.

rule for me is,
Houses near good transport with garden close to city centre are a winner in long run and in three years, this is what i will be buying ( I was goingt o buy in a year)
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

In the long run property is a pretty safe bet. I think it was me who said that. The doom and gloom merchants are having their day now but in ten years time if you can afford to hold on property in Ireland is as safe as houses. Not saying that gives much support to the people who bought at the top of the market, but its a fact.
Tell that to the Japanese, where there are into their 19th year of house price deflation (depsite a few upward bumps along the way). All the signs now are of another downturn in Japan.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

It's not only the people who bought at the top of the market that are in trouble, plenty of people kept releasing equity in their houses to fund their lifestyle and now have high mortgages relative to the value of their homes, increasing mortgage interest rates, commuting costs (petrol) going through the roof and job losses looming.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

If you bought at the top of the market then perhaps. Another thing is that yes supply will increase but land amounts are finate. especially in cities. And even if we build up which I doubt, there will always be a market for houses with a guarden in the future. Maybe I am being nieve but I am pretty sure I will be right in the long run.

rule for me is,
Houses near good transport with garden close to city centre are a winner in long run and in three years, this is what i will be buying ( I was goingt o buy in a year)

Depends on your definition of winner.
I would say over the "next" long 10-15 years property will be a very poor investment and most alternatives will comfortably outperform it.
As I've said previously I don't think it will match inflation, which for long-term investments should be the minimum requirement.

Over 3 years anyone property now or next year will be looking at significant capital loses.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

Your forgetting one simple thing. The law of supply and demand. Population of ireland set to double in 30 years. Need I say more. 3 more years of stagnation followed by decent growth.
With a population growth rate of less than long-term replacement (1.9 births per woman), you are largely relying on immigration to achieve this figure. This would be of the order of 2 some percent of the population every year until 2030. Do you really see this as sustainable?
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

In the long run property is a pretty safe bet. I think it was me who said that. The doom and gloom merchants are having their day now but in ten years time if you can afford to hold on property in Ireland is as safe as houses.

I'm sure that had been said by many in japan over the years since their own property bubble. Property is a as safe as houses? As someone else said there are plenty of examples where over 10 year periods property has not beaten inflation. In terms of the apartment market, for example, many blocks that were built over the past 5-10 years no longer conform to minimum standards that were introduced lately (may well have been locking the gate after the horse had bolted but thats another debate). Do you see these as safe investments?

I'm not a doom and gloom merchant, I'm a realist.

Tell that to the Japanese, where there are into their 19th year of house price deflation (depsite a few upward bumps along the way). All the signs now are of another downturn in Japan.

Must say I knew the japanese market had struggled after their own bubble but didn't realise it was this bad. Wow!
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

population growth is not just about births, its also about people not dying. Im no expert however, but i read recently that population in ireland is set to double in 20 years. I stand to be corrected.
 
Re: Why bailing out housing market is a very bad idea

I'm sure that had been said by many in japan over the years since their own property bubble. Property is a as safe as houses? As someone sle said there are plenty of examples where over 10 year periods property has not beaten inflation. In terms of the apartment market, for example, many blocks that were built over the past 5-10 years no longer conform to minimum standards that were introduced lately (may well have been locking the gate after the horse had bolted but thats another debate). Do you see these as safe investments?

I'm not a doom and gloom merchant, I'm a realist.

Poople have to live somewhere. That is a fact. Also this comparison with the worst property bubble i.e japan may or may not be valid. I am not sure that all the factors in the japenees housing market can be applied to the Irish market. Again I may be wrong.
 
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