Working remotely from Spain

torblednam said:
I think that what you're talking about (seeing as you're talking in Leperish (or maybe Leperese?!), which means that some translation tends to be necessary), is the requirement for a person staying longer than 90 days in a 180 day period, to register with Spanish authorities. So people don't get a fine for being in the country for too long, or exceeding a quota, they'll get fined for not complying with the requirement to register with the authorities. That's a fundamental difference, in your presentation of "facts".

And just because you preface a list (comprising of a mixture of your opinions and facts), by saying "here's a list of facts", doesn't make it a list of facts!

https://www.ireland.ie/en/dfa/overseas-travel/advice/spain/ :
"Staying for longer than three months
All EU citizens who want to stay in Spain for more than three months have to register in person at the Oficina de Extranjeros (Foreigners Office). You will be issued a Certificate of Registration with your name, address, nationality, identity number (NIE) and date of registration. The certificate serves as confirmation that you have registered, but is not recognised by the local authorities as a valid form of identification."
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Is this something new or relatively recent as I've never heard of it before or was it always there??
My last three trips we're all more than 90 days the last one in 21/22 but all three trips ended with me leaving through France
 
The "90/180 day rule" is being enforced mainly because of Brexit. Ask any British resident in Spain (especially those who have not gained their Residentia) as they have fear of reporting anything to the local police, iocal council, Emergency Medical Centre etc because first questions asked by the authorities now are:-
1. I want to see your passport?
2. I want to see your Residentia?
3. Then Driving Licences/EHIC equivalents come into play.

If anybody is doubting what I'm saying ask any English speaking house/apartment/villa living owner in Spain. There are talks of Applications-for-Extending the periods of stay. It is costly and the process is not merely to fill in a form and it takes months. Even I am even sugar-coating the situation here. Over the past few years the Passport Control Procedures in all the airports, ports and other points of entry are being updated. I understand this process is nearly completed countrywide. You are probably thinking "British Ex-Pats being illegally in Spain - it's happening everywhere there. Believe me! - We'll be hearing much more of the situation.

1. Many Brits are selling up in Spain currently.
2. So much so, it's affecting the price of property.
3. "They will always want the British Money Syndrome" is dying amongst people from the UK.
4. Nearly every Brit in Spain who has an Irish grandfather/grandmother has applied for an Irish Passport - many of them never set foot in Ireland.

Right Lep! Why aren't all the Brits in Spain applying for their Resedentia? - It is an onerous process and many many private details must be divulged and proved and you must show that you will not be a liability on the Spanish Health System etc. Some abogados (solicitors) have been dining out on this for the past five or so years and even they find difficulty in jumping through all the hoops.

If anybody on this forum wants to challenge the above just peep into any (and I mean any) British Ex Pat Forum in Spain.

Now the question we Irish are asking:- Will the Spanish authorities increase their residency stays with EU nationals? - I can't answer that at this point.
 
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Leper said:
Now the question we Irish are asking:- Will the Spanish authorities increase their residency stays with EU nationals?
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Sorry Leper, I'm struggling with the translation of this, can you explain what this means, in plain English?!

The EU treaties provide freedom of movement and establishment between member states, so I'm struggling to see what the concern is - yes, they can impose a certain amount of red tape, registration etc... but they can't impose a limit on duration of stay, or some cantankerous old Leper will have the Spanish govt in front of the CJEU pronto for infringing their fundamental rights as an EU citizen.
 
torblednam said:
Sorry Leper, I'm struggling with the translation of this, can you explain what this means, in plain English?!

The EU treaties provide freedom of movement and establishment between member states, so I'm struggling to see what the concern is - yes, they can impose a certain amount of red tape, registration etc... but they can't impose a limit on duration of stay, or some cantankerous old Leper will have the Spanish govt in front of the CJEU pronto for infringing their fundamental rights as an EU citizen.
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1. This is as English as I can make it:- Spain, like France, italy etc is a member of Schengen and Schengen rules apply there. The entitlement for say an Irish person (Ireland is not in Schengen) is 180 days during a rolling year (note I didn't say Calendar Year). Largely this is being ignored by the Spanish authorities as I write and I'm not complaining. This may not be the case soon if the Spanish authorities step up their efforts.
2. Now for the question you didn't ask:- Would Irish people who stay in Spain for more than 180 days in a Calendar Year be liable for Income Tax in Spain? - The answer is YES (and they'll even send you the bill by courier).
3. Another question You Didn't Ask:- How do I calculate Rolling-Year-Stays? - Count back from the last day you were in Spain for twelve months and if this shows you were there for over 180 days you may not go to Spain (or any Schengen country) until you have days "wiped."
4. Your days in any Schengen country are to be included the the foregoing too.

If you have any more questions I'll be delighted to answer as best I can.
 
Leper said:
1. This is as English as I can make it:- Spain, like France, italy etc is a member of Schengen and Schengen rules apply there. The entitlement for say an Irish person (Ireland is not in Schengen) is 180 days during a rolling year (note I didn't say Calendar Year). Largely this is being ignored by the Spanish authorities as I write and I'm not complaining. This may not be the case soon if the Spanish authorities step up their efforts
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Leper said:
3. Another question You Didn't Ask:- How do I calculate Rolling-Year-Stays? - Count back from the last day you were in Spain for twelve months and if this shows you were there for over 180 days you may not go to Spain (or any Schengen country) until you have days "wiped."
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Leper said:
4. Your days in any Schengen country are to be included the the foregoing too.
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You keep using this word "entitlement" - entitlement TO WHAT?!?!?!?!

It seems that you are suggesting that the Schengen agreement supersedes the EU treaties to which all EU countries are bound, and that somehow EU citizens from countries not in Schengen can be kicked out of EU countries that are in Schengen, after an arbitrary amount of days? I am not a lawyer, nor an expert in EU law, so I don't know that answer for a fact but it seems inconceivable that this could be the case.

If you aren't suggesting that, then what is the entitlement that you keep referring to? I had thought that what you meant (but weren't conveying clearly) was that you have to register if you are staying in Spain in excess of a certain threshold (which is a world away from having a restriction imposed on the days that you can actually spend in a country).

Having done some googling, my understanding is that the relevant "entitlement" is as follows:

(https://administracion.gob.es/pag_H...on-residencia/info-general.html#-2003a7f2ef1e)
"Citizens of a Member State of the European Union, of another State party to the Agreement on the European Economic Area and of Switzerland have the right to reside in Spanish territory for a period of longer than three months in the following cases:
  1. They are employees or self-employed persons in Spain.
  2. They have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on Spain’s social assistance system during their period of residence, and have comprehensive, public or private health insurance cover in Spain.
  3. They are students enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the competent education authority, for the purpose of following a course of study; have public or private health insurance that provides comprehensive coverage in Spain and guarantee that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members.
  4. They are family members accompanying or joining a citizen of a Member State of the European Union, of another State party to the Agreement on the European Economic Area or of Switzerland who satisfies the conditions referred to above."

As far as I can ascertain, the above has got the square root of diddly squat to do with Schengen, as is evident from the lack of any reference to Schengen and the fact that here in Ireland, a country not in Schengen, we have basically the same requirements on our books. It's an EU thing, not a Schengen thing.

Now, I have underlined the word "right" above because it is important - the right is not contingent on registration - although from the State's point of view, the registration process is how it establishes to its satisfaction that you have the right (e.g. because you have a job, or a pension, or are otherwise financially secure).

The actual regulations are set out here in case anyone is interested: https://www.boe.es/eli/es/o/2012/07/09/pre1490

As it pertains to pensioners:
"Persons who do not carry out a work activity in Spain must provide documentation proving compliance with the following two conditions:

1. Health insurance, public or private, taken out in Spain or in another country, provided that it provides coverage in Spain during your period of residence equivalent to that provided by the National Health System.

In any case, pensioners will be deemed to meet this condition if they prove, by means of the corresponding certificate, that they are entitled to health care from the State from which they receive their pension.

2. Availability of sufficient resources, for themselves and for their family members, so as not to become a burden on Spain's social assistance during their period of residence.

Proof of the possession of sufficient resources, whether by periodic income, including income from work or otherwise, or by the holding of assets, shall be made by any means of proof admitted by law, such as property titles, certified cheques, documentation proving the receipt of capital income or credit cards. In the latter case, an up-to-date bank certification accrediting the amount available as credit from the aforementioned card must be provided.

The assessment of the sufficiency of means must be carried out on an individual basis, and in any case, taking into account the personal and family situation of the applicant.

The possession of resources that are greater than the amount set each year by the General State Budget Law to generate the right to receive a non-contributory benefit, taking into account the personal and family situation of the interested party, will be considered sufficient accreditation for compliance with this requirement."
 
torblednam said:
1. Health insurance, public or private, taken out in Spain or in another country, provided that it provides coverage in Spain during your period of residence equivalent to that provided by the National Health System.

In any case, pensioners will be deemed to meet this condition if they prove, by means of the corresponding certificate, that they are entitled to health care from the State from which they receive their pension.
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I presume the second paragraph is that an E111 form or whatever it's called now suffices.
 
Leper said:
1. This is as English as I can make it:- Spain, like France, italy etc is a member of Schengen and Schengen rules apply there. The entitlement for say an Irish person (Ireland is not in Schengen) is 180 days during a rolling year (note I didn't say Calendar Year). Largely this is being ignored by the Spanish authorities as I write and I'm not complaining. This may not be the case soon if the Spanish authorities step up their efforts.
2. Now for the question you didn't ask:- Would Irish people who stay in Spain for more than 180 days in a Calendar Year be liable for Income Tax in Spain? - The answer is YES (and they'll even send you the bill by courier).
3. Another question You Didn't Ask:- How do I calculate Rolling-Year-Stays? - Count back from the last day you were in Spain for twelve months and if this shows you were there for over 180 days you may not go to Spain (or any Schengen country) until you have days "wiped."
4. Your days in any Schengen country are to be included the the foregoing too.

If you have any more questions I'll be delighted to answer as best I can.
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I always enjoy Leper’s posts but I really struggle with this designation of these folk as “Ex-Pats”. They are plain immigrants to Spain. Pure and simple…

Rant over.

g
 
torblednam said:
As far as I can ascertain, the above has got the square root of diddly squat to do with Schengen, as is evident from the lack of any reference to Schengen and the fact that here in Ireland, a country not in Schengen, we have basically the same requirements on our books. It's an EU thing, not a Schengen thing.
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Correct. Schengen is merely an area within Europe that have abolished border controls within their mutual borders.

Ireland not in it nor the Uk as they had no borders other than their own mutual border of NI and because of the common travel area. So no need for it.
 
I've researched this issue a bit, reliable sources include ireland.ie and interior.gob.es (the horse's mouth!)
Two issues are being confused here, residency and tax.
Residency: All EU citizens spending more than 90 days (in a rolling 180) must register as residents. It's a right, providing you meet certain financial and Health system requirements eg have a job in Spain or adequate funds to support yourself and family (proof required )and have private health insurance (giving cover equivalent to Spanish National system)or have a retirees right to health care.
Tax: Anyone spending over 183 days in a calendar year in Spain, not necessarily consecutive, becomes tax resident in Spain. This can be very problematic.
 
Thanks @rustbucket... by the time I reached the end of my lengthy post above, I forgot that I hadn't made that exact point - that there was conflation on an epic scale happening, between administrative requirements applicable to spending time in Spain, versus tax residency rules.
rjt said:
I've researched this issue a bit, reliable sources include ireland.ie and interior.gob.es (the horse's mouth!)
Two issues are being confused here, residency and tax.
Residency: All EU citizens spending more than 90 days (in a rolling 180) must register as residents. It's a right, providing you meet certain financial and Health system requirements eg have a job in Spain or adequate funds to support yourself and family (proof required )and have private health insurance (giving cover equivalent to Spanish National system)or have a retirees right to health care.
Tax: Anyone spending over 183 days in a calendar year in Spain, not necessarily consecutive, becomes tax resident in Spain. This can be very problematic.
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I emailed a lady in Spain whom I use whenever is necessary. She is a solicitor and emigraton/immigration is one of her work areas.

My assessment of how long Irish Passport Holders can remain in Spain is wrong and apologies for appearing from talking on the higher ground. I'm not going to offer excuses. I'll post the legal entitlement of Irish Passport Holders later today. My Spanish is good, but I want to go through every word before committing to the forum. And I'll do it in only a few words.

Again apologies.
 
If you have an Irish Passport:-

  • You can remain in Spain for 90 days. If you wish to remain in Spain longer you should have applied for a “Residencia” and long before the 90 days expired. Failure to leave Spain by the 90th day is an Administrative Offence and is rarely pursued. Will it be pursued at some future date? – I don’t know and I suspect not.
  • There is no restriction on an Irish Passport holder leaving Spain after 89 days then legally re-entering during the next day and no Residencia is required.
  • I M P O R T A N T:- Once you spend longer than 180 days in Spain in a calendar year (January – December) irrespective of your residential status you become a De Facto Tax Resident and as such are liable to pay income tax there on your worldly income. I understand if you are not on the local Padrón (kind of register of electors) this might not be pursued. So any holiday home owner m Spain might think about not getting “registered” on the Padrón.
Once again, apologies and I learnt something too. The above was translated by me from an email from a solicitor friend in Spain. Her email was much longer and carried some legal jargon. However, I got my translation confirmed by a Spanish person residing in Cork. On a personal note:- I'm glad this subject came up and I'm a lot more wise today than I was yesterday.
 
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Leper said:
I M P O R T A N T:- Once you spend longer than 180 days in Spain in a calendar year (January – December) irrespective of your residential status you become a De Facto Tax Resident and as such are liable to pay income tax there on your worldly income. I understand if you are not on the local Padrón (kind of register of electors) this might not be pursued. So any holiday home owner m Spain might think about not getting “registered” on the Padrón.
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to be pedantic, it's longer then 183 days not 180. I now spend about 180 days a year in Spain as I wish to remain tax resident in Ireland and I am very careful not to exceed the 183 days in a year in Spain.

While you can probably get away with it (for now) , I don't advise staying more then 183 days a year in Spain and hoping the Spanish tax authorties won't notice becasue you didn't register for residency. At some stage the Spanish tax authorities will probably do a trawl through the entry/exit records and then you might get a very unwlecome letter in the post.

I suspect many retired Irish people with properties in Spain ignore this risk but with the new systems being put in place where passports are being scanned in and out for people from non-Schengen countries (including EU countries like Ireland) this data will be easily available to the Spanish Tax authorities. Every time I have flown in or out of the Canary Islands for the past 18 months I have had my passport scanned.
 
I wonder though how the Spanish (or any other EU authorities) can precisely tell how many days you spend in a specific country. It would be a daunting task. Ok when you leave Ireland indeed you do get the passport scanned etc. but once you are outside of Ireland within the Schengen area nobody checks your passport any more. Eg. when I go back home to France I could drive or take a train to Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Spain and many more places and I did it many times and nobody has ever stopped me and asked to show my ID when crossing these borders.
 
BongoBangoBingo said:
Thanks for the reply

I'm an employee. My employer is supportive of the idea but has asked me to do my research as to the tax implications
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Tax implications for you and also for them ? The Legal/HR implications also need considering.

As someone who used to work for an MNC and worked remotely for many weeks a year, the company had a large department that tracked no. of days and any possible tax and legal implications for both them and their staff.

I'm guessing you work for a small local company and not a large multi-national in which case trying to do things by the letter of the law in the home country (Ireland) and the host country (Spain) would probably not be feasible.

As some others has suggested the "don't ask, don't tell" approach is likely to be the only way this will work but if your employer doesn't want to take that risk then I suspect it's not going to work out.

I do some work when I am in Spain but I have my own company (registered in Ireland) so my clients in Ireland and elsewhere don't care where I am and it has no tax or legal implications for them. In your case your employer would carry the risk.
 
I work for a large multinational in the oil & gas industrial automation field and although I'm employed in Ireland I travel a lot for work. Throughout the year I work many more days abroad in different countries at customers sites than in Ireland. Eg I spent the first 2 months of 2024 in Azerbaijan. At times during testing and deployment I may work a few days onsite then stay in the hotel locally (is this remote work ?) to do changes/modifications and then go back at the customer's site to test after a few days and so on. That's the nature of the job. In any other industries if working abroad for a few months a year would really be problematic then a lot of companies would need to review the way they do business, a lot of businesses would be impossible to run. Eg I visit at least 10 countries every year so do my colleagues. If my company would need to worry about the tax implications with us working in each of the country that we visit they may well close shop........
 
The original post was a 1-2 month stay-in Spain, sticking with this scenario exclusively, there are no implications on this for Tax, nothing changes.

Health Insurance - was checking this for our son who moved to Spain permanently last year, i contacted Laya who confirmed he policy cover expires, with zero coverage, once he exceeds 6 months in another country. (See Laya attachment)It is possible to upgrade the cover, but it adds significant cost, so we didn’t avail of the option, and he is now “off” the Laya policy.
As he is now working in Spain, paying Spanish tax etc, he has his Spanish healthcare card( the name escapes me), and has free GP visits and prescriptions, via his nearby health clinic.
For those on non permanent stays of 1-2 months, there is the free to apply for EHIC card providing public cover(max of 3 months stay), as well as Ireland health insurance full cover for a 1 to 2 months stay.(max of 6 months with a Laya standard policy.
 

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