Key Post Wood burning stoves

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heinbloed

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To compare the Co2 emissions of one sort fuel with an other one can not take into account the weight/CO2 ratio_One wants the energy in the house,not the weight of the fuel.The Canadian page Mac refers to is a propaganda page of the timber industry and Mac fell for it.A bit more critical reading please!
Here are the real numbers,taken from the book"Green design-sustainable building for Ireland",published by the Office of public Works and the European Commission,
ISBN 0-7076-2392-8 :
Typical emission factors for fuels(based on gross calorific value)
Gas 0.18kg/kwh CO2 0g/kwh SO2
LPG 0.22g/kwh CO2 0g/kwh SO2
Gas oil 0.25g/kwh CO2 0.5g/kwh SO2
Fuel oil 0.26g/kwh CO2 5g/kwh SO2
Coal 0.3-o.35g/kwh CO2 2-3g/kwh SO2
Peat o.36g/kwh CO2 1g/kwh SO2
Electricity 0.8g/kwh CO2 8g/kwh SO2

They give no numbers for timber.Logical thinkers know that timber as well as peat are one and the same substance fuel wise(cellulose).So timber is the second worst polluter(CO2) in the fuel list,like peat.The argument that it is renewable does not count since the Forests are declining worldwide.And CO2 is a global problem.As I said before:D ry waste timber is fine as a fuel,it would rot anyhow,turning into CO2.Logging the Forrests for fuel -CERTAINLY not.
Mac gave the impression that timber can be dried in a shed.That is simply not true.As he mentioned as well it needs an aerated dry environment to dry ,as his friends
in Switzerland have.Outside,barely covered(against the rain) and open on the sides.Mac said the things in the shed(bicycle,gardening tools) rust because people don't wipe them dry when they put them in.How does one wipe a log of timber dry,why does mum not try to dry the washing in the shed?It won't work.
When the EU made regulations about timber dryness -for the building industry-the Irish and British gouvernments managed to get the EU to make a compromise:max.18% moisture is allowed in timber.ALL other nations had already since ages- long before drying killns where used- their own national regulations.Far below 18% moisture.
The Irish and British timber industry simply CAN'T produce dry timber in an economical way .They HAVE to use energy consuming drying killns to achieve the minimum standard -18% moisture.
Everyone is able to look at the next timber yard.Irish building timber is nearly always killn dried.Foreign timber is usually air dried,hence of better quality-and cheaper when bought in quantity.If the EU had insisted on the higher standards which where in place before ,the Irish and British timber industry would have stopped to exist.The costs of kiln drying would have driven them out of the free market.Only because they agreed on 18% max.moisture ( a quality that carpenters on the continent would hand to the gardener but not use in construction) we have a Forrest industry here.17% max.moisture would have broken the neck of most forrestrys here.So they agreed on the lowest standard possible-18%.20% moisture content and soft wood(spruce and pine) is attacked by fungus.The building erected with such timber would not be safe.See building regulations.It could be achieved to dry timber here in Ireland to less than 18% moisture content without the use of a kiln.It had been done before in the old ages.But that would take ages.And every year of waiting costs money.So trying to get dry timber for fuel is a problem here.Either one uses off cuts-waste from the kiln-or one has a lot of space to dry it,plus insurance for it.Timber in large quantities is "worth" stealing it.Dry timber can burn down accidentally.There are fire legislations how high a timber stack can be versus the distance to the next stack and the distance to the next building.And these legislations are valid from a certain amount onwards.A supply for several years for a single home will certainly fall under these fire regulations.From Bavaria I know that only enough timber fuel for a few month is allowed next to the house.
 
S

sueellen

Guest
Some other posts

Conor Purcell
Unregistered User
oil burning stove


Our chimney is damaged and needs extensive work which would cost over 2/3k. I was given advice to install an oil burning stove instead. Less hassle and more economical it seems. Can anyone offer me advice on buying an oil burning stove and how much they cost to install in an existing fireplace.

heinbloed
Unregistered User
oil burning stove


Repairing a chimney for 2-3 k is a waste of money when you can buy a condensing boiler for less, they need no chimney,just a vertical pipe to an outside wall and they are far more economic to run.
Check for models and their efficiency
www.sedbuk.com/
I got one a year ago for €1400 Vat from Cork Heatmerchants,a combination boiler(makes domestic hot water and heats the house) from Vokera,model HYDRA,incl. the flue pipe("chimney").Installed it myself, the manual how to do it comes with it,all you need is a
registered gas fitter to connect it.But there are oil fired ones available as well.
Using an oil burning stove connected to a chimney designed for an open fire could bring you in trouble,but I am not a specialist in these things , ask an engineer.As far as I know each fuel demands a different chimney,but I could be wrong there.
And when you give up the chimney than close it for good at the top,that will stop the draught/waste of energy and gives you a chance to check the stability of the chimney pot.

PGD
Frequent poster
Re: oil burning stove


Hi,

I have a gas file in my drawing room, but I have no chimney. There is a fan and a vent at about 5 foot high out the outside wall.

I want to havea real fire of some kind but don't want to build a chimney, because it wouldn't look right with the house design.

I've been thinking about wood burning stoves but as far as I can tell then need to have a completely vertical chimney pipe.

Is there any way to have one with a bend and maybe attach some kind of fan unit to draw the smoke up and out? I wouldn't mind if the fan was outside so you wouldn't really hear it.

heinbloed
Unregistered User
bend in the pipe


Hi PGD !
You have to clean the chimney at least once a year.How would that be done with a bend in it?
The upper end ( the outlet ) has to be above the roof level/the highest point.So a fan in the wall won't do .
A gas fire in a room without ventilation is not legal.
I think the last time I have seen pictures with flue pipes of simple stoves
sticking out windows and walls was in reports about Northern-Korea......

stobear
Frequent poster
Re: bend in the pipe


PGD, in my new house, I will have a gas fire with no chimney, there is an outlet on the outside wall. I would love to install a wood burning stove, but as mentioned above there seems to be a problem with having that bend installed in the flu. I wouldn;t have a problem extending the flu above the roof height of the house. I had a look around the regulations for wood burning stoves but cant find anything, would be interested to hear how you get on?

PGD
Frequent poster
Posts: 168
Re: bend in the pipe


stobear (and others).

I just had a chat with a fireplace/stove retailer (Fireplaces Direct) in Drogheda. He said that whie he didn't fit them, he didn't think there would be a problem... as all stove come with and option to fit the flu to the top or **at the back**, and that you can buy flu sections that are angled up to 90 degrees.

So he said that basically fit it going out the back, out through the wall (I'm sure you and I could arrange to fit it through the existing gas flu hole) and then straight up. I'm going to investigate a bit further though.

A related question... the heat output of the stoves is measured in kW. What would be needed to heat a room that is about 16" by 16". Bearing in mind that the room already has rads which could be uesd for the main heat, and the stove for some heat plus effect....

Many thanks.

PGD
Frequent poster
Re: bend in the pipe


BTW I found a website (can't remember now) that said that if you put bends in the pipe you had to fit flaps of some kind to facilitiate cleaning. Don't have any more info but something to start with....

Betsy Og
Unregistered User
cleaning chimneys


I've been advised theres no need to clean a "real gas" or oil burning stove chimney as the fuel is so clean.

Also, a chimney needs to extend about 2 ft over the crest of a roof. If you go for non-vertical sections on an oil stove chimney you need to go higher over the crest of the roof to create sufficient draw, so major dragging of the chimney leaves you with, in theory at least, a chimney pot somewhere up in the sky.

PGD
Frequent poster
Re: cleaning chimneys


Hi,

I've done some more research. All the wood burning stoves have outlets for vertical or horizontal.

So what you do is get a flxible hose section. Stick it in the rear outlet and flex it through your wall (if you had a gas fire installation). Then when it gets outside you use the steel pipes and can put 90 degree bends in them.

FYI I can pick up a nice wood burning stove for €700 and I estimate the parts for the chimney will cost me about €1500.
 
G

Geegee

Guest
Re: >>Wood burning stoves

These are recommended on the SEI website. I have already ordered a live fuel effect gas fire and an open fire for another room but am having serious second thoughts now due to the inefficiency of both types. Any thoughts on whether I should change to woodstoves instead?
 

moneypitt

Frequent Poster
Messages
100
Re: >>Wood burning stoves

Just after moving into a house (9 yrs old), which has a gas fire (the usual, chimney et all). I read elsewhere that its extremely dangerous to try to add coal, logs or briquettes to a gas fire, as it might block the gas nozzles and what not, but does anyone know where can buy those decorative logs, that sits on top of the gas fire to give it the real-fire-effect? The kind of log that actually doesn’t burn, but glows and help dissipate some of the heat into the room, than straight up thru the chimney?!

Thanks a million!
 

Carpenter

Frequent Poster
Messages
2,607
Re: >>Wood burning stoves

The coals/ logs you refer to are presumably some type of ceramic and should be available from any fire place retailer. Check out the Bord Gais website www.bge.ie for details of approved gas appliance stockists.
 
G

Geegee

Guest
Re: >>Wood burning stoves

I am thinking of buying a Charnwood stove Country 4 wood burning stove http://www.charnwood.com The price I have been quoted is €950 plus €150 fitting. I have looked at other stoves around €450 but the Charnwood retailer insists that it is the best as it is made in the UK, has good after sales service and parts are readikly available. Has anyone any views on this? Do you konow of a comparable stove for less?
 
G

Geegee

Guest
Re: >>Wood burning stoves

Has anyone fitted a wood burning stove? I don't think there is much to it but the suppler wants to charge €150! It seems that it only entails putting the black flue pipe into the pre-cast flue, holding it up when lifting the stove into place and then filling in betwen the black pipe and the flue; this is the part I am unsure of: how is this gap filled? Is there anything else I have missed? Any replies would be appreciated.
 

Woodsman

Frequent Poster
Messages
80
Re: Key Post: Wood burning stoves

I am fascinated by the lack of real facts in the replies to the original query. If you Google www.coford.ie you will find lots of info on using timber to heat your home. Open fires are only app 25% efficent in converting fuel in to heat. Modern stoves are app 75% efficient and log gasifiers are almost 90% efficient but are really more suitable for large homes. I purchased two stoves from Fenton Fires in Greystones and found them excellent. Fentons are also good for proper advice and installation. Avoid the cheap models. You get what you pay for. There are a number of good reputable stove suppliers and also a lot of cowboys in the business.
Wet firewood is rubbish. What is the point of burning water? There are also now a number of reputable suppliers of dry timber and it is perhaps the best fuel to use as it is home produced, only emits the carbon that the tree has already removed from the atmosphere so is carbon neutral, it replaces imported coal or oil and its production is part of the proper management of woodland in the form or thinnings. Google the words "logs" or "firewood" to find firms that supply wood fuel but as always, get a sample first. Pellets have got a bad name due to many systems giving trouble. Also, a lot of the pellets on sale are imported from as far away as Canada. I heat my home entirely with one stove burning 24 hours per day and one other small one for the sitting room in the evenings. Never have to turn on the central heating but then the house is really well insulated.
Good quality wood fuel is economical, clean and green and using it avoids costly imports. We just need to relearn how to use and store it and finding a reputable supplier selling only Irish timber is the first step to take.
 
M

mel w

Guest
hey guys.
I have a stove shop and answer this type of question every day. !! Stoves are very efficient AND YES THEY DO NEED TO BE "FED" but as 80% of the heat of an open fire goes up the chimney it certainly is a better option to put in a stove. ! hunter stoves are great as are charnwood. parkray. franco belge etc but the rolls royce of stoves would be the clearview,

hope this helps
 

Betsy Og

Frequent Poster
Messages
447
Exposed flu up through house for wood stove

Mel W,

I might direct this to you as you're in the know. I'd like to retro-fit a small solid fuel stove in a living room of a two storey timberframe house. There is no fireplace.

It has been explained to me that basically you set up your stove on a concrete footing/base, have a vertical flu pipe off the top/back of it, feed the flu pipe up through a hole you have to cut in the the ceiling of ground floor and floor of upstairs, and up through that ceiling and out through the roof.

I presume you need to use appropriately spec'd cavity barriers/firestops at the "junctions" with celings/floors/roof. You go for a nice black wrought iron looking flu and away you go. The flu pipe acts as a type of radiator upstairs.

A few questions/points:


  1. Could it be that easy?, any regulations?, risks?
  2. Typically would the flu pipe upstairs be warm/hot enough to burn on contact?, in which case either enclose or do a radiator cabinet type jobby. Is there any internal insulation in the pipe or 2 leaves of metal so you dont get full heat out of the fumes.
  3. I intend to mains wire smoke and carbon monoxide alarms at each level so happy enough on that score.
  4. As a timberframe then talking plasterboard walls, would I need to up the spec on those to account for the heat source nearby.
  5. How far out from the wall would the stove/flu pipe need to be?
  6. Is cleaning straightforward?
  7. I've been told that the flu I'm talking about could be used at a later date if, say, you wanted to switch to a "real gas" fire, but not the other way around (i.e. the flu for solid fuel is higher spec and therefore can cope with less fumes from a gas fire).
Anything else one might need to know? (I've read all this thread, indeed I note my contribution many years ago!!).
 

Betsy Og

Frequent Poster
Messages
447
Been doing my own research, check out miflues.ie (no connection to them) for loads of good info on the topic, including a link to the regs on the area: http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/

Looks like do-able, the flue pipes are double leaved insulated internally so no risks re a burn off it upstairs, when going through ceilings/floor you need a "firestop" which keeps the pipes the requisite distance from combustible material (80mm).

Pipe needs to be 3 times its diameter out from the wall (if unprotected wall), can be nearer if a heat shield put in. So I'd say for "normal" stove pipes you're talking a foot and a half out from the wall at the max., 1 ft probably fine for the majority of stoves. If thats too much go the heat shield route and get closer to the wall.
 
C

canine

Guest
Im about to buy a burner with a boiler to heat radiators ,Im currently compacting waste paper and cardboard into logs for burning in my open fire ,can you burn these in a solid fuel burner
 
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