Wind getting in at lean-to roof

C

chippengael

Registered User
Messages
153
Hi,

I have a 2 storey 3 bed semi where the kitchen extends a meter or two out into the garden. The lean -to roof of this extension meets the external wall of the house half way up, and is sealed with lead flashing. The prevailing wind hits this side of the house and wind is howling into the blocks and through the walls at this intersection. The house is 17 years old.

What can be done?

Is it necessary to lift the tiles of the lean-to roof, and pump foam into the region where the roof meets the wall to seal it up? Or is it simply a case of replacing the flashing?

Any ideas appreciated.

C
 
To me what the issue is here is that your house has internal drylining on the walls that were dabbed on with no full seal top and bottom of the sheets of plasterboard.
The wall vents in the wall were piped only to the inside face of the block, leaving a gap between the inner block face and the plaster board.
The wind gets in here and all around the house.

I dont think its the lead flashing, but I have been wrong...
 
Your description doesn't give enough detail to make a determination.
Even a full photograph inspection probably won't show enough.

You need to get a proper inspection done on site.
Be prepared to pay for limited opening up.

Wind doesn't blow through walls.
I doubt its the flashing.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
take off one of the inner grills on your wall vents and see what sort of construction you have before you call anyone
 
@ chippengael

Inspecting yourself without taking professional advice is of limited use.
You should appoint an architect or building surveyor to inspect and offer independent advice.
Asking the person who will carry out the work to advise means the advice received is not 'independent'.
The value of independent advice is that it is offered without fear or favour, and is one reason why an architect cannot also be a contractor.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
hastalavista said:
Block Plastered on the outside and plastered/skimmed on the inside?


No dry-lining on inside?

How can you tell they are 9" cavity?
Click to expand...

Actually, externally insulated since 1 year on the outside, but ineffective due to wind entering the structure somehow, suspect the kitchen roof line as vents etc sealed externally as much as possible.

Walls have platerboard on inside, but suspect no insulation behind.

Looking into the ESB box, or down a vent lets you know we are dealing with cavity blocks.

Right now I think it might be best to remove the tiles, insulate as much as possible the roofline and seal it up....

C
 
If the wall is 225mm/9" cavity its possible that someone who tried to hack out a channel for the flashing has in fact breached the skin of the blockwork, which is ~ 25mm/1" thick.
This is rank speculation on my part, but it would explain why the wind seems to be coming through at that location.
If wind is getting in, so could rain, so look out for damp spots below the flashing.

The wind penetration may have nothing to do with the flashing at all.
The top course may not be sealed with 100mm on the flat.
This effectively leaves the structure totally open.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
chippengael said:
Actually, externally insulated since 1 year on the outside, but ineffective due to wind entering the structure somehow, suspect the kitchen roof line as vents etc sealed externally as much as possible.

Walls have platerboard on inside, but suspect no insulation behind.

Looking into the ESB box, or down a vent lets you know we are dealing with cavity blocks.

Right now I think it might be best to remove the tiles, insulate as much as possible the roofline and seal it up....

C
Click to expand...
Did the external insulation cover all the wall vents externally?

If not and given what you say about the internal plaster board, I will repeat what I first wrote:

To me what the issue is here is that your house has internal drylining on the walls that were dabbed on with no full seal top and bottom of the sheets of plasterboard.
The wall vents in the wall were piped only to the inside face of the block, leaving a gap between the inner block face and the plaster board.
The wind gets in here and all around the house.
Click to expand...

In addition where does the wind actual come out in the house?

Did the external insulation stop above the flashing?
 
hastalavista said:
Did the external insulation cover all the wall vents externally?

If not and given what you say about the internal plaster board, I will repeat what I first wrote:



In addition where does the wind actual come out in the house?

Did the external insulation stop above the flashing?
Click to expand...


We insulated over the vents externally in most of the rooms. Only the kitchen and living rooms were not covered over as they have a gas boiler & fire in them.

The air seems to circulate through the walls and appears in unusual places - coming up through the floorboards in the bedroom, even from the toilet flush. We found a gentle breeze blowing out of an electrical socket!

The insulation stopped above the flashing. When the wind hits the roof it is directed up into this join and I suspect this causes the problem.

Of course you have to bear in mind that it is a semi-detached house, and my neighbour did not have his house externally insulated at the same time.

There is one more issue that we have not been able to recitfy - the external insulation was built around the bathroom downpipes leaving them encased. A bad smell built up in there which was finding its way back into the house so we had to place vent holes in the insulating box, thus more or less destroying the insulating capability of this part of the insulation.

The company which did the job has been paid and is ignoring us strenuously.

C
 
You appear to have blocked all the permavents to most of the habitable rooms.
Have you installed a mechanical ventilation and heat reclamation system to supply air?

Bad air from a pipe should not have built up in the way you describe if there is a vent pipe.
Who did this company get to check that the work they did complied with the building regulations?

I'm beginning to think this is going to be a horror story of how not to an existing semi-d insulate externally.
The touble is that there is only so much advice you can give remotely, as well as after the fact with work covered up.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Well, all I've done is queried it hastlavista, based on what the OP has posted and the obvious implications of same.
I'm concerned that there may be people who don't understand the implications of covering over permavents without providing -
(i) an alternative means of supply fresh air when the windows are closed

and

(ii) an adequate supply of air to gas appliances.
​
The consequent reduction in air quality can lead to complications, from -

  • general drowsiness, to

  • respiratory problems to

  • possible fatality
- especially where the lack of fresh air is combined with a build up of fumes from say a badly burning gas appliance.

I would strongly suggest that the local Bórd Gáis inspector out to ensure that both the gas appliances - boiler and fire have got sufficient supply air to them.
I would also suggest that an architect be retained to inspect the completed dwelling for compliance with the Building Regulations.

ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Just to add here:
even from the toilet flush
Click to expand...
by the OP is a scary item and because of this I would be getting the sewage issue sorted first as the draughty house may be a life saver if there is ANY ingress of sewage fumes into a house where, by all accounts the basic ventilation requirements are not being met
 
hastalavista said:
Just to add here:
by the OP is a scary item and because of this I would be getting the sewage issue sorted first as the draughty house may be a life saver if there is ANY ingress of sewage fumes into a house where, by all accounts the basic ventilation requirements are not being met
Click to expand...

OK, where to begin.

1. We have left open vents in rooms which have boilers/fires, as I believe I have stated already. We're not completely stupid! The vents could be reopend easily in other rooms such as bedrooms etc, but for now we use our windows when necessary. MHRV would be a good idea if we had actually managed to insulate our house effectively - which we haven't.

2. I would agree that the company which carried out the external insulation job are rubbish. However, they were SEI listed and the finished work was inspected by SEI and the grant was approved and paid. Furthermore, they were recommended highly by friends of ours, which was unfortunate. They certainly botched a few things which I am trying to remidiate. The fact that air is circulating unhindered through part the structure underlines one of the issues. There are others, but lets not get too far off topic.

Having lived abroad for years it puzzles me as to why we think it is necessary in Ireland to have holes knocked in every room in our house...?

C
 
chippengael said:
OK, where to begin.

1. We have left open vents in rooms which have boilers/fires, as I believe I have stated already. We're not completely stupid! The vents could be reopend easily in other rooms such as bedrooms etc, but for now we use our windows when necessary. MHRV would be a good idea if we had actually managed to insulate our house effectively - which we haven't.

2. I would agree that the company which carried out the external insulation job are rubbish. However, they were SEI listed and the finished work was inspected by SEI and the grant was approved and paid. Furthermore, they were recommended highly by friends of ours, which was unfortunate. They certainly botched a few things which I am trying to remidiate. The fact that air is circulating unhindered through part the structure underlines one of the issues. There are others, but lets not get too far off topic.

Having lived abroad for years it puzzles me as to why we think it is necessary in Ireland to have holes knocked in every room in our house...?

C
Click to expand...

1. The house as you describe it appears contravene the Building Regulations Part F and may be potentially life threatening. The issue is whether it is getting background adequate ventilation to maintain air quality. Common methods include
- an MVHR system
- permavents in walling or glazing
- some sort of on-demand vent-in-wall system​
Its your choice, but I'd get the place looked at immediately.

2. The previous government brought forward new regulations and "approved details" which do not appear to take circumstances like yours into account. Companies with limited understanding of building physics appear to be making decisions and carrying out work to satisfy these new regulations which may put laypeople at risk from the effects of inadequate ventilation.

3. The original topic has been fully addressed - further speculation will fail to bring more clarity. You were the one who introduced new issues to which regular posters to AAM have responded in good faith. The fact that air is circulating through the structure may be the house's saving grace, in the context of the lack of ventilation elsewhere as hastalavista suggest.

4. It is unlikely that addressing one isolated symptom on an online forum will adequately deal with all the problems affecting your dwelling. You should consider appointing an architect or building surveyor who understands building physics and is competent to interpret the building regulations to attend, inspect and issue a report with recommendations.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
@ chippengael,

Just for the record.
I didn't state, suggest or imply that you were stupid.

I didn't suggest that the company who carried out the work was rubbish.
The company carrying out the work are responsible for carrying it out compliantly.

I think this kind of situation may test the limits of liability for insulation installers where no architect is appointed.
Do they have a responsibility to ensure that alternative ventilation is being provided where if block existing permavents in the course of their work?


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
onq said:
@ chippengael,

Just for the record.
I didn't state, suggest or imply that you were stupid.

I didn't suggest that the company who carried out the work was rubbish.
The company carrying out the work are responsible for carrying it out compliantly.

I think this kind of situation may test the limits of liability for insulation installers where no architect is appointed.
Do they have a responsibility to ensure that alternative ventilation is being provided where if block existing permavents in the course of their work?


ONQ
.
Click to expand...

Hi again,

I do appreciate the comments, thanks.

I don't have high regard for building regs as they allowed the use of 9 inch cavity blocks to build the swiss cheese wind tunnell which we paid so dearly for. I just don't buy the need for vents in every room.

I think a legal challenge would be an interesting avenue, but more expensive that the original job.

The original question has not been answered though. I guess I should call some of my architect friends, they would be happy to get some work I suppose.

Thanks again,

C
 
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