Paul O Mahoney
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Such arrogance should be washed down with a 1988 Pomerol after riding with the hounds hunt down a...
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Will you go for a pint when restrictions are lifted?
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Paul O Mahoney
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Apparently it's not for those who are fit and can't remember what they post both hypocritically and lies.
The majority have shown its not a big deal
Leo so only if its written in law that no sporting organisation can decide that Covid19 certs are required to enter their stadiums?
Didn't the organisers of electric state on tbe national airwaves that only fully vaccinated persons could attend there concerts if they were granted a licence... No change in law required..
Didn't the organisers of electric state on tbe national airwaves that only fully vaccinated persons could attend there concerts if they were granted a licence... No change in law required..
Sophrosyne
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I was really addressing my question to @waterman.
On the one hand, he doesn't appear mindless. He follows health guidelines, looks after his health and understands the pressures on the health service.
On the other hand, he doesn't appear to understand that in the midst of a global pandemic the Government acts in the common good. It would be impossible and impracticable to facilitate a myriad of individual contestations, ideological or otherwise .
You're just making stuff up now. You suggested the Government should have sent a message around last week's events be insisting on certs for entry, that would have been messaging against the legislation.
I don't believe very many would think more confusion and mixed messaging is what we need right now,
Lots of things people do on a daily basis have the potential to profoundly affect the lives of those around them. Every time you drive a car, you have the potential to kill if you don't take appropriate care and precautions.
An otherwise good neighbour who falls asleep at the wheel, drives too fast, or momentarily looses concentration can end up injuring or even killing you or someone you care about. It's a low risk, but a risk none the less. Making a selfish choice not to get vaccinated carries a similarly low risk of an undesirable outcome. So while I don't feel those who choose not to get vaccinated should be pilloried, I don't think we can call them good neighbours either.
I can choose to remain slightly drunk all day but if I do then that means I cannot drive a car.
I can choose not to get vaccinated but if I do that SHOULD mean I cannot go to pubs and restaurants etc and I will have to keep wearing a mask etc long after those who choose to be vaccinated.
We all have choices in a free society but our choices have consequences because, like, we live in the real world and we are adults.
Though fully vaccinated, I'm opposed to vaccination apartheid. It's not really a free society if the unwashed are to be effectively excluded for declining an emergency-use vaccine. I don't like the creep of authoritarianism. The use of statutory instruments by the relevant ministers is a tad too gung-ho. Now that everyone has been offered a vaccine it time they ease up on the edicts lest the Government overreach.
Using emotive language like apartheid and authoritarianism does little to further an argument. Are you really suggesting that not allowing an unvaccinated person access to a small number of commercial operations temporarily is really the same thing as ~50 years of brutal racist oppression?
We are very far removed from authoritarianism here with significant levels of support for restrictions and very high take up of the vaccine.
Are you suggesting that just offering vaccines is enough to counter Covid? If they're overreaching why are our case numbers so high right now?
In some other EU countries the unvaccinated are locked down, or can be fired by their employers at will...
Is it still a free society if a country is under curfew or lockdown because of a pandemic?
So how is it no longer a free society if some of the measures only apply to those whose behaviour is most likely to prolong the pandemic?
I'm not sure if I agree with 'fire at will' or lockdown... but I think PUP payments should not be given to the unvaccinated.
I don't think our approach has been at all authoritarian.
And Pfizer, for example, is not an emergency use vaccine in the EU or US, it has received full approval.
Hardly. Clearly I said 'vaccine apartheid', segregation based on vaccine status. No need to fear emotive language or worry about controlling mine.
Nope. Far from being a panacea, it seems that at least the vaccines have weakened the link between cases and hospitalisation & death (although their efficacy seems to fall off at an alarming rate). Now that the hysteria around any talk of therapeutics has subsided hopefully they will ensure that hospitals don't fill up, and we can just get on with it.
With 90% vaccinated it will make no meaningful difference to exclude others based on that metric. If one is vaccinated the unvaccinated do not pose much of a risk. We are all likely to catch Covid in any event.
I'm sure I don't agree with fire at will. And to withhold welfare from the unvaccinated would be an aggressive form of vaccine (dare I say it?) apartheid.
No doubt there will be many who would agree with mandatory vaccination or internment of the unvaccinated. The minister is exercising sweeping powers, no doubt well intentioned, but there is an authoritarian tilt. Perhaps if there was a different crowd in power some would be less sanguine about the use of statutory instruments.
My opinion, albeit a minority one, is just subjective, like anyone else's.
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Not in Europe it hasn't. It is still operating under conditional marketing authorisation which has to renewed annually as far as I know. Unless I missed it.
Why not say discrimination? The term apartheid, derived from Afrikaans, was devised to describe the system in South Africa. It's not a catch-all term to be applied to every minor case where discrimination of any nature is being discussed. You will find it is generally only used when someone is trying to blow a situation out of all proportion.
Then why is our hospital capacity in danger of being overwhelmed with the unvaccinated?
Yep, they are all still under EMA 'Conditional marketing Authorisation'.
mea cupla, got confused, yes it's only in US that it has full approval.
Even so, conditional marketing authorisation is not emergency use authorisation:
A Conditional Marketing Authorisation (CMA) follows a controlled and robust framework providing safeguards that emergency use authorisations might not.
I didn't hear any scientist saying that they'd be a panacea. What we do know is that in this country unvaccinated people are more than 9 times more likely to end up in hospital if they get Covid.
There are tremendous advances in therapeutics. Pfizer's new pill reduces hospitalisations by 90% and while it's not being made in this country it'll be made just over the border in Cork
I agree that we should just get on with it but part of just getting on with it is getting vaccinated. Maybe they should start giving out lollypops and 'Mammy's little hero' stickers for those who are scared to have a tiny needle stuck in their arm. Maybe Peppa Pig or Dora or someone could do an advertisement campaign.
I don't think the unvaccinated should be shunned but their should certainly be embarrassed.
I'd love to see a collective Darwin Award go to all those who died after refusing the vaccine.
I could have. I wanted to use a word with only negative connotations. 'Discrimination' is on the fence; we discriminate all the time.
When will I find that attempts to control others language is used?
Not doubt a multitude of reasons. Capacity, starting from a low base anyway, hasn't been ramped up much over the last 20 months. The health system has long been ailing . . bed-blockers, 100's on trolleys, interminable waiting lists, two-tier care. The unvaccinated are just part of the mix, plenty of smokers and obese taking up beds. The popular fixation with the unvaccinated is overzealous.
The unvaccinated are the most tractable in all that mix, the ones that fixation \ peer pressure \ media pressure \ government nudges can have the most impact on.
Versus...
If someone stops smoking now, their lungs are damaged.
Dealing with obesity, diabetes requires serious commitment, effort, support etc
Hugely scaling up ICU given how tight for staff and space current hospitals already are
In contrast, nudging thousands more people to get vaccinated which is an inconvenience \ mild illness for 2 days of their lives...
As I've mentioned on other threads, other countries with more ICU capacity than us are being tougher than we are on the unvaccinated.
I think a big issue is the reporting of data. There are some really good journalists in this Country but I do wonder sometimes about editorial standards. And the HSE and Politicians are not blameless either.
This is what the HSE reported about deaths up to 6th November and was picked up by media and reported as:
243/606 (40.1%) deaths were notified in persons who were not vaccinated or not registered as vaccinated on Ireland’s national COVID-19 immunisation system (COVAX). •
363/606 (59.9%) deaths were notified in persons who had received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine prior to death. •
292/606 (48.2%) of the notified deaths had an epidemiological date1 14 days or more after receiving both doses of a 2-dose regimen or 1 dose of a 1-dose regimenand are considered as vaccine breakthrough infections –
The amount of times I have seen on social media and even mentioned by family and friends that 48.2% of deaths were vaccinated people compared to only 40.1% of deaths in unvaccinated. This is a complete mis-representation of the data considering the difference in the size of the vaccinated population versus the unvaccinated population.
I know you will never be able to defeat hysterical fake news but I think we have done an awful job with communications around the vaccines. Goes back right to the start with the constantly changing criteria about who can take what vaccine and has continued in how they report the impact of the vaccine on serious illness/hospitalisation versus infection rates. For months people were being told that vaccinations were the way out of this. That everything will be different if the vast majority of people get vaccinated and the vast majority did. Now the Government and public health can talk about the ever changing nature of Covid but everyone could see what happened in Israel and yet we still seem to have got caught with our pants down once again.
Everyone should get vaccinated. Vaccines and therapeutics are the only way out of this but Ireland has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world. We also have a health service that doctors have been saying is under resourced for years in areas like critical care. Unvaccinated people are one part of the problem but they are not the only part. Even with a 100% vaccination rate, we would still still be having extremely high case numbers and a hospital system under pressure.
This is what the HSE reported about deaths up to 6th November and was picked up by media and reported as:
243/606 (40.1%) deaths were notified in persons who were not vaccinated or not registered as vaccinated on Ireland’s national COVID-19 immunisation system (COVAX). •
363/606 (59.9%) deaths were notified in persons who had received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine prior to death. •
292/606 (48.2%) of the notified deaths had an epidemiological date1 14 days or more after receiving both doses of a 2-dose regimen or 1 dose of a 1-dose regimenand are considered as vaccine breakthrough infections –
The amount of times I have seen on social media and even mentioned by family and friends that 48.2% of deaths were vaccinated people compared to only 40.1% of deaths in unvaccinated. This is a complete mis-representation of the data considering the difference in the size of the vaccinated population versus the unvaccinated population.
I know you will never be able to defeat hysterical fake news but I think we have done an awful job with communications around the vaccines. Goes back right to the start with the constantly changing criteria about who can take what vaccine and has continued in how they report the impact of the vaccine on serious illness/hospitalisation versus infection rates. For months people were being told that vaccinations were the way out of this. That everything will be different if the vast majority of people get vaccinated and the vast majority did. Now the Government and public health can talk about the ever changing nature of Covid but everyone could see what happened in Israel and yet we still seem to have got caught with our pants down once again.
Everyone should get vaccinated. Vaccines and therapeutics are the only way out of this but Ireland has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world. We also have a health service that doctors have been saying is under resourced for years in areas like critical care. Unvaccinated people are one part of the problem but they are not the only part. Even with a 100% vaccination rate, we would still still be having extremely high case numbers and a hospital system under pressure.