something like thatMe neither. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
Why would I not want the Gardai to know my DNA profile?
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
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Brendan Burgess
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1) You are not taking any risk. No one has shown how a Garda or anyone else can misuse this data.
2) There is a huge benefit to society. If a friend of yours gets raped, the Gardai would have a good chance of identifying the culprit quickly. This is good for catching rapists and it frees up the Gardai to do other duties.
well of course...what do you expect!
We've seen how others states will grab data through PRISM and use it for their own purposes. We've seen cases of Gardai and social protection staff feeding information to insurance companies for money. I don't think it takes a massive conspiracy theory to see how this kind of data could be sold or abused.
There is also a very practical issue around how they build the database. Are they going to tie down every adult in the state who refuses to give a sample and take a sample by force? Are they going to take a sample from every visitor, or immigrant? Is there a significant number of rape cases or violent crimes that are going unsolved for lack of resources? What specific problem are we trying to solve here? Will this encourage violent criminals to proceed to kill and dispose of the body in a way that destroys DNA evidence after raping? Will it encourage criminals to be more DNA aware, like the rapist who forced the victim to shower after the attack?
There is also a very practical issue around how they build the database. Are they going to tie down every adult in the state who refuses to give a sample and take a sample by force? Are they going to take a sample from every visitor, or immigrant? Is there a significant number of rape cases or violent crimes that are going unsolved for lack of resources? What specific problem are we trying to solve here? Will this encourage violent criminals to proceed to kill and dispose of the body in a way that destroys DNA evidence after raping? Will it encourage criminals to be more DNA aware, like the rapist who forced the victim to shower after the attack?
From what I saw on the news, the DNA samples will only be identifiable by barcode in the lab. There is also a committee overseeing the project with a Judge as chairman.
I have no problem whatsoever with a national DNA database. Instead of seeing all the negatives that have being espoused on this thread, I'd rather look at the positives.
-Solving crimes much quicker
-Solving cold cases
-Just solving cases that might never otherwise be solved
-Preventing crime (I heard the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre on the radio yesterday talking about the huge number of rapes never solved, and how international evidence points to repeat offenders who don't get caught for ages as being a major issue)
I'd hazard a guess that if you polled victims (or their families) of serious crimes over the past 20 years, they'd be overwhelmingly in favour.
I'd say if AAM (just to use it as an example) was around when the wheel was invented, there'd be people on here saying it was a bad thing as it means the Gardai would be too quick to go after people they did'nt like for crimes they did'nt commit!!!
I have no problem whatsoever with a national DNA database. Instead of seeing all the negatives that have being espoused on this thread, I'd rather look at the positives.
-Solving crimes much quicker
-Solving cold cases
-Just solving cases that might never otherwise be solved
-Preventing crime (I heard the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre on the radio yesterday talking about the huge number of rapes never solved, and how international evidence points to repeat offenders who don't get caught for ages as being a major issue)
I'd hazard a guess that if you polled victims (or their families) of serious crimes over the past 20 years, they'd be overwhelmingly in favour.
I'd say if AAM (just to use it as an example) was around when the wheel was invented, there'd be people on here saying it was a bad thing as it means the Gardai would be too quick to go after people they did'nt like for crimes they did'nt commit!!!
I'd say that complaint would be well down the queue behind such staples as blaming the public service for having held up it's invention, castigating all those who paid in cash for their wheel etc etc
Brendan Burgess
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1. Risk is generally attached to what we can't be sure about, and what we know now isn't definitive.
2. If there is DNA evidence found on any victim as it stands it can be used against a suspect when they are caught, but how many are caught this way? I would have thought that any serial offender would take adequate precautions to eliminate this risk.
Furthermore, people want to exercise their own right to privacy, and if I want to remain a private individual without being tagged like an animal, I would wish that that right was respected.
I think Inda should roll out his social contract again. Citizens are free to do what they want as long as they dont break the law (&that includes pay their taxes and charges).
Beyond that IF they want anything from the State they should "play ball", so if you want:
Social Welfare (including childrens allowances) you help the State in any reasonable way you might - e.g. giving a DNA sample.
Same goes for public health etc.
If on the other hand you stray over the line and are convicted of a serious offence(s) you start to lose rights, so your right to withold a DNA sample goes, your right to SW, your right to health care. If you're happy to roll in and out of jail, or just sit at home doing nothing but draw the dole, then you're living in a consequence-free country !!
We all want the bits that suit us, no-one wants to pay or help, so the State has to do its best to marshall the unruly mob. It's not perfect, but neither are we.
Beyond that IF they want anything from the State they should "play ball", so if you want:
Social Welfare (including childrens allowances) you help the State in any reasonable way you might - e.g. giving a DNA sample.
Same goes for public health etc.
If on the other hand you stray over the line and are convicted of a serious offence(s) you start to lose rights, so your right to withold a DNA sample goes, your right to SW, your right to health care. If you're happy to roll in and out of jail, or just sit at home doing nothing but draw the dole, then you're living in a consequence-free country !!
We all want the bits that suit us, no-one wants to pay or help, so the State has to do its best to marshall the unruly mob. It's not perfect, but neither are we.
I presume you'd suggest that the same rules apply to anyone getting mortgage interest relief from the State, or any business getting support from their local Country Enterprise Board or Enterprise Ireland, or any farmer getting a State subsidy - they lose all their rights to withhold a DNA sample too, right?
Yes, you're either in or you're out, as long as the request is reasonable. A la cart is grand, but I think the honest people are getting sick of getting leeched off. It wont cost anyone anything to give a DNA sample, enforce your rights if you want but dont then come looking for a handout when it suits you.
Using these two points together:
The rape argument seems to be the most emotive, as does murder. But, I've yet to see any figures on what the database would add to successful conviction.
What proportion of rape cases return a not guilty verdict on the basis of the difficulties with consent rather than an unknown or unproven rapist? We could have all the DNA in the world, but if most cases hinge on whether or not it was consentual rather than if it was the accused or not, then that seems to indicate we won't have a huge increase in convictions from the database.
Similarly murder, we don't have serial murderers here. We might, we could, but most murders are linked to criminal activity and domestic/family issues/feuds. So who did the crime isn't really in doubt, it is their motives.
So for me, before we are asked to give up privacy (and I understand some are more protective of theirs than others and that does not imply guilt, just, like me, I want the state out of my personal life as much as possible), what actual benefit will follow from this. Just how much Gardai time will be free now as a result of super fast convictions and what will they be doing with that time? If we can currently organise for Gardai to patrol roads to give tickets to cyclists and people using bus lanes, then surely we can free up time for investigating serious crime?
Is solving one rape case that would have never .
The system needs to be tested first. Not based on computer models or judicial oversight (PRISM has judicial oversight too), but like good tech companies who hand over new devices and systems to professional hackers to see what the exploits are. We know the was and is corruption with the Gardai, we need to know the system is 100% secure.
The rape argument seems to be the most emotive, as does murder. But, I've yet to see any figures on what the database would add to successful conviction.
What proportion of rape cases return a not guilty verdict on the basis of the difficulties with consent rather than an unknown or unproven rapist? We could have all the DNA in the world, but if most cases hinge on whether or not it was consentual rather than if it was the accused or not, then that seems to indicate we won't have a huge increase in convictions from the database.
Similarly murder, we don't have serial murderers here. We might, we could, but most murders are linked to criminal activity and domestic/family issues/feuds. So who did the crime isn't really in doubt, it is their motives.
So for me, before we are asked to give up privacy (and I understand some are more protective of theirs than others and that does not imply guilt, just, like me, I want the state out of my personal life as much as possible), what actual benefit will follow from this. Just how much Gardai time will be free now as a result of super fast convictions and what will they be doing with that time? If we can currently organise for Gardai to patrol roads to give tickets to cyclists and people using bus lanes, then surely we can free up time for investigating serious crime?
Is solving one rape case that would have never .
The system needs to be tested first. Not based on computer models or judicial oversight (PRISM has judicial oversight too), but like good tech companies who hand over new devices and systems to professional hackers to see what the exploits are. We know the was and is corruption with the Gardai, we need to know the system is 100% secure.
Do we not 'help the state' through taxes, household charges, motor tax, water rates etc? If I loss my job and need SW for a month or two between jobs, I would suggest that I have earned the right to claim SW without having to lose my right to privacy.
I find the idea of pensioners and the unemployed being seperated into a different class from those able and employed crass to say the least.
Where does it end? Maybe you're kids can't attend school unless you agree to whatever vaccinations the state demands. This happens in some American states. Narcolepsy anyone? This DNA database is ultimately to be shared with all EU countries. I'll not be giving any DNA, legal requirements notwithstanding.
Here's a link to an article from Genewatch UK about this topic:
http://www.genewatch.org/uploads/f03c6d66a9b354535738483c1c3d49e4/infopack_fin.pdf
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http://www.genewatch.org/uploads/f03c6d66a9b354535738483c1c3d49e4/infopack_fin.pdf
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It's only you making that distinction - you'll notice I said childrens allowance, claimable by the uber-rich to those not in employment - in a nutshell I'm saying if you want all the good stuff you should be prepared to help out - not subject yourself to medical trials - just have a cotton swab collected - not the end of the world.
On the positives of the database, maybe it'll prevent you from inadvertenly marrying your half sister/brother, as this country slides into GerrySpringer-dom I'm sure it's regularly happening, maybe when you give your 6 months notice they'll do a cross-check and let you know !!
Black Sheep
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I'm just uncomfortable with this whole DNA idea mainly because of the storage and the access to same.
We've had incidents where unauthorized persons accessed information. There is no system which is completely secure
We've had incidents where unauthorized persons accessed information. There is no system which is completely secure
Brendan Burgess
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This is a vague notion of lack of comfort.
The information cannot be used against you, other than to identify you as a suspect in a serious crime.
People have this vague idea of privacy. Privacy in any reasonable use of the word, is not remotely affected by this, unless people mean the privacy of not answering to crimes.
People don't seem to have a privacy issue when it comes to mobile phones...in theory it's the same as being micro-chipped. All your movements can be tracked by authorities if they have a reason to.
It seems privacy issues only come to the fore if the system being proposed has no direct or apparent benefits to the some people!
It seems privacy issues only come to the fore if the system being proposed has no direct or apparent benefits to the some people!