Why no one is going to jail for the banking crisis

FERGUS O'ROU said:
1. It is a reasonable question. Get the evidence for the answer you are presuming, and I will pay it some attention.
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It was a rhetorical construction to rebut the question you asked - I am doubtful, not presuming, about the Irish banks ability to cause this. However I'm still pointing out that avenues of investigation shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. The logic of that approach has been disproved time and again. For example, the medical establishment once thought that the idea of a bacterium (H. Pylori) being a major cause of stomach ulcers was "insane" - but it turned out to be true, thereby vastly reducing the profits of people who made stomach medicines.
2. Separate issue. Reasonable point, but I am not going to be distracted into that discussion now - it is irrelevant to the question of whether crimes were committed.
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Nope, its fairly central, because contracts without penalties for wrongdoing where the potential is vast are themselves prima fascie proof of poor governance. Poor governance was the root of all this, for those who cannot bring themselves to accept it was intentional.
3. There appears to have been poor contract documentation all over the banks. You have a point there, but not as regards criminality. We own AIB: why are our elected representatives not investigating what you suggest ?
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:)

Looking back over the Q & A's Fergus I think out answers are slipping out of sync, but I'll agree with you on this last point.

I'll venture to suggest that to do so might open up a series of vistas that those in power might find embarrassing and leave it at that.
 
FERGUS O'ROU said:
This thread has become as interminable as my series of blog-posts !

I am going back to try to finish them.

It's been fun but I may not be able to return. You know where to find me.
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Likewise Fergus.

You're a worthy debater and I've enjoyed the exchange, even though like you I am moithered with other commitments just now.

I'll drop in to read your blog time permitting.

We might write some law. :D


ONQ.
 
csirl said:
From the dictionary:

"Treason is any attempt to overthrow the government or impair the well-being of a state to which one owes allegiance; "

Most people think of treason as being violent, but it does not have to be.

A lot people who are guilty of treason think there is nothing wrong with what they are doing. They often belong to certain political movements or have political views which are different to their government. They usually genuinely believe that their actions are for the common good. The fact that they are not aware they are doing wrong or are misguided does not mean they are not guilty of the crime.

We know and can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the actions which caused the current climate have, in fact, impaired the well being of the State. Therefore you would think that successfully identifying the individuals who participated in the crisis would be sufficient to guarantee a criminal conviction.
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Sweet post, csirl.

Sometimes we forget that monstrous crimes are already known by other names.

The irony is that I have been calling the banks behaviour "economic treason" for a while - and forgot about it! LOL!
 
onq said:
Sweet post, csirl.

Sometimes we forget that monstrous crimes are already known by other names.

The irony is that I have been calling the banks behaviour "economic treason" for a while - and forgot about it! LOL!
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But there is no law stating anything like economic treason, the Irish treason act solely states acts of war against the state as treason, and no such act was committed.

Also imagine following situation. Back in 2005 at the peak of the boom, bankers would have done the opposite and started tightening lending because they thought things were getting out of hand. At that time politicians and the public were shouting for more tax breaks, incentives, reduced stamp duty, lower interest rates, higher multiples of earnings and so on. The sentiment at the time would very quickly have turned to calling banks evil perpetrators that are making it more difficult for people to own their own home and that such a move would be bad for the property market and the economy and therefore "economic treason". Banks did what banks do, and the only reason they were able to lend out the amounts they did at such low rates was because of the actions of the ECB and government. Start from the top down, not bottom up.
 
Chris said:
But there is no law stating anything like economic treason, the Irish treason act solely states acts of war against the state as treason, and no such act was committed.
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“All wars are economic in their origin”.

- BERNARD BARUCH, before Nye Committee, 9-13-1937
Also imagine following situation. Back in 2005 at the peak of the boom, bankers would have done the opposite and started tightening lending because they thought things were getting out of hand. At that time politicians and the public were shouting for more tax breaks, incentives, reduced stamp duty, lower interest rates, higher multiples of earnings and so on. The sentiment at the time would very quickly have turned to calling banks evil perpetrators that are making it more difficult for people to own their own home and that such a move would be bad for the property market and the economy and therefore "economic treason". Banks did what banks do, and the only reason they were able to lend out the amounts they did at such low rates was because of the actions of the ECB and government. Start from the top down, not bottom up.
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The ECB is a Bank.

Thank your for pointing out its equivalence with a sovereign government.

"When the Federal Reserve Act was passed, the people of these United States did not perceive that a world banking system was being set up here. A super-state controlled by international bankers and industrialists...acting together to enslave the world...Every effort has been made by the Fed to conceal its powers but the truth is--the Fed has usurped the government."

-- Congressman Louis McFadden, House Committee on Banking and Currency Chairman (1920-31)

And thank you for pointing out that the government has dirty hands, although this can hardly come as a revelation to many AAM readers.

“This [Federal Reserve] Act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President signs this bill the invisible government by the Monetary Power will be legalized...the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill. The caucus and party bosses have again operated and prevented the people from getting the benefit of their own government.”

-- CHARLES LINDBERGH, Sr., U.S. Congress

It seems government and the banks working hand in hand and supporting each other is nothing new.

And if only we had a few more Irish people uttering quotable quotes about the Irish banking system I wouldn't have to trawl American sources.
 
onq said:
And if only we had a few more Irish people uttering quotable quotes about the Irish banking system I wouldn't have to trawl American sources.
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I think that's the point though...as nice as they sound, they're only quotes. As has been pointed out, a crime (as defined in law) needs to have been broken.
 
Nope, as has been pointed out, this is a common law jurisdiction.
A criminal act, once its been defined, can become the subject of a law.
This may only needs a broadening of the interpretation of the law on treason.

It may lead to a new law on Economic Treason which may have international significance.
We have endless laws supporting the sharp end of contract, leasing and lending practices.
We need to balance this with laws that protect the electorate from the worst ravages of these.
 
onq said:
A criminal act, once its been defined, can become the subject of a law.
This may only needs a broadening of the interpretation of the law on treason.
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Well I'd be all on for that. Not sure I'd hold my breath for it though.
 
You never know.

There seems to be a lot of people out there who are very teed off.

Including retired people with a lot of clout and members of the legal profession and others whose pension funds were destroyed.
 
A most interesting diascussion.

The nearest we are going to get to any sanction for bankers is the Central Bank's fitness and probity assessments.

Despite their demonstrable incompetence,most particularly in relation to understanding and managing risk, my own guess is that not a single banker will be asked to step down.
 
If you move money from one bank to another to falsify the balance sheet is that not a crime?
 
Even if a conviction for malpractice of the banking and financial regulation doesn't come about they should use their bonus to pay their defence lawyers to defend them when an independant body put the many questions to them that need to be asked. I think for the tax payer that would be money well spent!
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Rusnak, Millkin and Madoff did not cause the banking crisis. They were just plain fraudsters who were convicted and jailed.

We haven't had that scale of fraud in Ireland, but fraudsters have been jailed. They are less high profile, so they get less media attention.
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Personally I don't see the parallel with these fraudsters so much.

I think a much closer analogy would be Jeff Skilling of Enron who is currently serving a 24-year sentence in the US. He was convicted of conspiracy, making false statements to auditors and other charges. Basically he committed securities fraud when he hid Enron debts off the balance sheet in a deliberate attempt to make the finances look better than they were to the stock market.

Didn't Anglo do that too when "Mr Drumm’s non-disclosure of the loans to Mr FitzPatrick in Anglo’s financial statements; Mr Drumm’s role in relation to the transfer of billions of euro in loans between Anglo and Irish Life Permanent in 2008 to bolster Anglo’s books"?

So I don't understand how people say what was done wasn't illegal or shouldn't be a jailable offense or that the US does not give custodial sentences for this type of market manipulation. And I certainly don't see whether or not this actually caused the banking crisis or not to be relevant - we should look at the crime on its merits. It is a fraud that was committed that needs to be punished with a custodial sentence (IMHO).
 
selfassessed said:
I think a much closer analogy would be Jeff Skilling of Enron who is currently serving a 24-year sentence in the US. He was convicted of conspiracy, making false statements to auditors and other charges. Basically he committed securities fraud when he hid Enron debts off the balance sheet in a deliberate attempt to make the finances look better than they were to the stock market.

Didn't Anglo do that too when "Mr Drumm’s non-disclosure of the loans to Mr FitzPatrick in Anglo’s financial statements; Mr Drumm’s role in relation to the transfer of billions of euro in loans between Anglo and Irish Life Permanent in 2008 to bolster Anglo’s books"?

So I don't understand how people say what was done wasn't illegal or shouldn't be a jailable offense or that the US does not give custodial sentences for this type of market manipulation. And I certainly don't see whether or not this actually caused the banking crisis or not to be relevant - we should look at the crime on its merits. It is a fraud that was committed that needs to be punished with a custodial sentence (IMHO).
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Precisely plus there was the Golden Circle loans to buy shares to prop up the share price thereby falsifying the position of the bank which apparently isn't illegal in this country!
 
Absolutely.

And while I see where a suggestion might arise that these shenanigans didn't directly cause the current crisis, these were the results of a systemic failure of regulation to adequately police the lending agencies and banks.

They were symptomatic of the underhanded sharp practice and negligence on the part of financial professionals which became synonymous with the Celtic Tiger and which DID lead directly to the current crisis.
 
Firefly said:
THE FORMER finance director of [broken link removed] has been arrested by fraud squad officers investigating financial irregularities at a bank.
William McAteer is being questioned by detectives from the [broken link removed] Bureau of Fraud Investigation.

http://www.independent.ie/national-...inance-director-mcateer-arrested-2922064.html
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could be just a distraction from the fact that we gave Anglo bondholders a billion today. Bankers have been publicly arrested before and let go soon after.
Could be just Bread and Circuses for the masses.
 
Is it not his 2nd time for questioning?

Nothing will come of it. I can guarantee one thing in the years to come, we will look back at all this and not one person will have done jail time because of it.

And in a country where people do time for not paying their TV licence.
 
bullworth said:
could be just a distraction from the fact that we gave Anglo bondholders a billion today. Bankers have been publicly arrested before and let go soon after.
Could be just Bread and Circuses for the masses.
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You could be right ;)
 
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