Why are there so few women comedians?

[daltonr]

Re: Feminism

You need to be very careful with those statistics. There's a lot of double counting. A single mother would be counted as a woman, and as the head of a single parent family, so it skews the statistics.

If single parent families are likely to live in poverty then that skews the statistics for women in general.

It could be that all of the things that lead to woman living in poverty are more to do with the type of lifestyle women tend to have as compared with men.

E.g. Women are involved in less accidents than men, but somen drive MUCH less than men also. In a couple where both people drive it is still more common for the male partner to drive than the female. So the statistics are not a meaningful or clear cut as they first appear.

The only question here is: Are there factors in society which actually prohibit women from pursuing the same life choices as a male counterpart. Apart from joining certain golf clubs it seems to me that there are no such prohibitions.

So if women are not getting ahead, if we don't have enough in politics, in business, in the Arts, etc. Then women need to start making the running on this. We've intervened enough to balance the scales.

I hope this doesn't sound patronising, but has anyone stopped to think that the same factors the "supposedly" make women better drivers (less prone to Risk etc) is also the factor that is holding them back in Business, The Arts etc.

Maybe Men and Women are just different.

-Rd

 

[MissRibena]

Re: Feminism

Hi daltonr

We've been over the "how different are the sexes" bit and the moral of the story seems to be that nobody really knows. There are claims and counterclaims but science has not come up with the answers.

I understand that statistics, particularly poverty ones, can be subjective but they can't be simply dismissed by anecdotes either. Anyway, I was so shocked myself at what I read earlier that it's inspired me to look into this area more so I'll come back with (hopefully) more comprehensive stats. I'd be more than happy to be wrong about my earlier claims.

It could be that all of the things that lead to woman living in poverty are more to do with the type of lifestyle women tend to have as compared with men.

I don't see how that justifies anything. Nobody should be living in poverty but if women do make up the highest proportion of those living in poverty it could very well explain why they are not involved in society. To use casiopea's words; they really do have more important things to worry about than feminism.

Blatant discrimination can be legislated against and has been and has helped to correct the situation but discrimination isn't always blatant. It's difficult to prove (like the poverty issue) and it's easy to brush aside. It doesn't mean it's not a problem or an issue that deserves proper investigation and debate.

We've intervened enough to balance the scales.

Who says "you've" intervened enough? Maybe if "you" still see it as an "us (men) and them (women)" problem, then maybe if you scratch the politically correct surface, not that much has really changed.

Rebecca

 

[daltonr]

Re: Feminism

Maybe if "you" still see it as an "us (men) and them (women)"

I didn't mean that we (men) have intervened enough, I meant that we (society) have intervened enough. And I believe we have.

If a woman wants to pursue the same life decisions as a man there is nothing stopping her. (Idiotic Golf courses aside).

Beyond affording women the same opportunities and freedom to carve out the life they want I don't see what else society can or should do.

It should be pointed out that just because YOU believe that more women should be in the highest echelons of business and society, does not mean that WOMEN in general aspire to that. Perhaps the current participation levels accurately reflect their aspirations, perhaps they have more balanced lives than the men (and a few women) who climb higher.

Perhaps women have more sense than to engage in high stress jobs that consume a persons life. Perhaps men like having their life consumed by work. We need to start thinking beyond the idea that women are downtrodden to understand how society works.

We've been over the "how different are the sexes" bit and the moral of the story seems to be that nobody really knows.

All the more reason to stop trying to engineer a society in which both participate in the same way. Opening the doors equally is fine. Pushing people through to maintain a balance is not fine.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that you are right, that there are thousands of woman who are held back, excluded, etc. That may well be the case. But it's not an open and shut case and it's a view that needs to be challenged to see if it holds up. So far I've seen nothing to suggest that it does hold up.

-Rd

 

[MissRibena]

Re: Feminism

Daltonr

You are more or less making the same point as me now, I think. I never said women were downtrodden by society. I said that it is very strange that the increase in women's equality rights has not been met by their taking advantage of those rights. I don't know why they are not; I originally said that I believe they have chosen not to, which would be fine with me if they had used the power to carve out a new way forward for themselves; but they haven't.

Like you and casiopea it didn't really occur to me that women "couldn't" participate until I came across the alarming poverty statistics and while I'm still investigating this, if it's true then the situation is far more grave than I thought. I've said time and again that whatever the reason women are not there, we should investigate it; something is wrong. And I also said that I was worried it was because we may not have it in us. However if women were not interested in pursuing these kinds of roles, why the big fight in the first place? Society in general can only benefit from finding out what's going on here.

Things are not as black and white as identifying something is wrong, legislate and hey presto it's fixed. There are laws against all kinds of discrimination but it doesn't mean that racism (e.g.) doesn't exist.

No woman I went to school with wanted to work a work-a-day job and none of them wanted to simply be mothers or wives either. We had the same dreams as the lads. Our school (and girls in general) did far better in the Leaving Cert. So what happened since - where are they and shouldn't they be leading the way now? Did the ambition that got them such good Leaving Cert marks just vanish and get replaced by some kind of fatalistic attitude in the space of a few years? And if so, what does that make the likes of casiopea whose ambition didn't desert her? Do men really find that their sisters, wives and mothers happier to settle for what they have than men? If ambition is genetically related to gender then how come before women entered the work place the male managers still had plenty of male subordinates ? Again, I have my doubts about the genetics and gender claims.

Many of my friends are of the marrying age and have all wondered how they would manage their jobs when kids come along. None of their partners are particularly concerned about this. You've already stated and I agreed that women who leave for child bearing/rearing issues should not necessarily be given the same treatment as their male counterparts and their childless female counterparts, so my friends have a valid worry (and their husbands don't!). One friend of mine who is separated has accepted that she can't go beyond a Grade 5 in her Local Authority (i.e. government!) job because there is no flexi-time available at higher grades and she can't work it any other way with the childminder. I'm not saying either of these things are right or wrong but they might be part of the reason why there aren't so many women in so many professions and if they are part of the reason then it's not really equality, is it.

I saw first hand three women with a combined total of 50 years of experience and two degrees being passed over for a sales manager's job in favour of a guy who failed his Leaving and had never worked in the industry in question; why? He had great contacts and kudos from his high profile GAA career - how does a woman match that? Despite the obvious discrimination, I had sympathy for the company - the guy really could sell more because of his profile but are these kinds of "network" issues another barrier for women?

Maybe not-so-blatant discrimination (such as the annecdotes above) is more widespread than we think and maybe we don't examine it closely enough. To be honest, the more I've explored why women aren't more involved in society through this thread, the more I start to suspect it has less to do with choice than I originally thought. On the one hand I find it deeply depressing that that might be the case but on the other at least it is preferable to "not having it in us". I still can't figure out why there aren't more people interested in the whole debate though.

Rebecca