Whole of life Insurance (> 40yrs) & Increasing Premiums

Eimear123

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My father (early 80s) has been paying whole of life cover for more than 40 years.

His position is that he was never informed that they could keep increasing the premiums to a point where he could no longer afford it. His focus is on maximising what he leaves us. I note that this is NOT what this policy is for but providing this information for context. I am assuming that there is no recourse and that the insurance company can point to correspondence, the T&Cs, and it is likely that policy should have been cancelled years ago once he no longer had any dependents.

Nevertheless, he has asked that we investigate it for him and help him decide what to do. We are proceeding on the basis that it is not a good idea for him to cancel policy or sign anything without expert advice. The insurance company have proposed - to fix premium and sum insured for life – which may seem like a good deal for someone in their 80s - but given the ‘life sum insured’, and health of my father it does not make intuitive sense (to me) that he should accept this offer. I think we/he needs -

1) Advice on the current offer from insurance company AND/OR advice on a better way to invest a monthly amount should he so wish (i.e. cancel the policy).
2) Expert review of the policy file to determine if any possibility to negotiate a better deal or potentially anything to base a complaint on (but unlikely I would say).

Does point (2) need specialist knowledge/expertise and would this be within the remit of a financial advisor? If so any recommendations on how to find one that would do both 1) & 2) above ? Or do I just follow this !

https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threa...pendent-financial-advisor.71012/#post-1351609

Any advice much appreciated.
 
The insurance company have proposed - to fix premium and sum insured for life – which may seem like a good deal for someone in their 80s - but given the ‘life sum insured’,
You mean that they have offered to continue offering €117K cover for €850 p.m. for the rest of his life?

You could assess the value of this by shopping around for a few quotes online for these criteria.
and health of my father it does not make intuitive sense (to me) that he should accept this offer.
What do you mean about his health? It's he a fit and healthy 80 year old or in poor health?

What sort of assets is he likely to pass on in his will? Does he actually need/want such life cover at all?

If he was to live until 100 and just saved the €850 p.m. until then he would have c. €200K ignoring the possibility of any savings/investment growth.
 
Yes correct - €117K cover for €850 p.m. for the rest of his life.

Apologies for confusion - he is exceptionally fit and healthy.

Assest wise I have no idea (house, maybe some savings...). He has just asked us to help out with this aspect. I don't think he needs it. He has no dependents and we (family) would prefer he spends his money on himself and enjoys whatever years he has left - but it is not my area of expertise and I don't want to incorrectly steer him in a certain direction.
 

The average life expectancy of an 82 year old man is 7 years (or 8 years for an 80 year old, 6 years for an 84 year old).

The sum insured of €117k is 11.5x the annual payment, so if he lives longer than 11.5 years he would have been better saving the money.

So statistically the expected payout is more than the expected cost of premiums and it would appear to be good value. But if he is exceptionally fit and healthy he may live longer than that and it will have been poor value.

But the main thing is that the premium is eye-wateringly large, he's making a mortgage-sized payment every month! In his 80s! Can he afford that, what other income does he have?
 
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The insurance company have proposed - to fix premium and sum insured for life – which may seem like a good deal for someone in their 80s - but given the ‘life sum insured’, and health of my father it does not make intuitive sense (to me) that he should accept this offer.
If that’s the opening offer of the life company then I’m sure there is a better offer to be had.

The premium is 850/month and the sum insured is 117k.
It’s still good value. He would need to live for 11 years for this to lose in cash terms and most men in early 80s don’t have 11 years in them.

If it’s too much for him to afford perhaps his beneficiaries might be able to help him with the cost.
 
If that’s the opening offer of the life company then I’m sure there is a better offer to be had.

I wouldn't have thought that there was much negotiation in this.

The life company has a better understanding of these issues than your father and I very much doubt that they are coming up with a proposal on which they will not make a profit.

If the plan is to leave the money to the kids, why not just give the premium to the kids now and let them invest it in a way that best suits them.
 
The sum insured of €117k is 11.5x the annual payment, so if he lives longer than 11.5 years he would have been better saving the money.

So statistically the expected payout is more than the expected cost of premiums and it would appear to be good value. But if he is exceptionally fit and healthy he may live longer than that and it will have been poor value.

And, if at some stage, he stops paying the premiums, because of an oversight or because he can't afford to, then it becomes terrible value.
 
But if he is exceptionally fit and healthy he may live longer than that and it will have been poor value.
That is fallacious thinking. You have to think in terms of expected outcomes. It’s irrelevant how long someone stays alive, what’s relevant whether it’s statistically good value.
 
That is fallacious thinking. You have to think in terms of expected outcomes. It’s irrelevant how long someone stays alive, what’s relevant whether it’s statistically good value.
It is statistically good value for the average 82 year old. But the life expectancy in the CSO tables is across all 82 year olds, whether in good health or poor health.

If he's in very good health his life expectancy is longer than the table, decreasing the value. Given the cost of maintaining the policy I would want it to be considerably more than break-even.
 
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But the main thing is that the premium is eye-wateringly large, he's making a mortgage-sized payment every month! In his 80s! Can he afford that, what other income does he have?
Yes - I appreciate the concern. wrt. to income, he has a reasonable pension I believe but I don't know how much. Given that he asked us to look into it for him he must have some concerns about paying this amount per month. As per Dr. Strangelove suggestion we would consider contributing if he decided he wanted to accept existing offer.
It’s still good value. He would need to live for 11 years for this to lose in cash terms and most men in early 80s don’t have 11 years in them.
Ok - good to know that this is a reasonable offer.
If that’s the opening offer of the life company then I’m sure there is a better offer to be had.
I was wondering about this - I was not sure if this kind of thing was open for negotiation. As far as I know this was offered without any prompting or engagement from my father.
If the plan is to leave the money to the kids, why not just give the premium to the kids now and let them invest it in a way that best suits them.
That is his motivation for even considering the offer on the table. So we are trying to support that goal - which of course ultimately benefits me+siblings - but that is not our motivation. If he wants to optimise what he leaves maybe he should a) see if he can get a better offer as per Dr. Strangelove comment b) depending on final offer - it might make more sense to invest in something else.
If it’s too much for him to afford perhaps his beneficiaries might be able to help him with the cost.
Yes, exactly that might make sense...

Thanks everyone for comments.
 
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