who to contact first - Gardai or insurance company?

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galway_blow_in

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got a call from one of my uncles today who is a bachelor farmer in his sixties , he has a farm yard away from his house and last night a fire started in his hay shed , the shed is small and not very valuable but not only did he loose about ten bales of hay , he lost an old tractor ( sentimental value was high ) which he had owned for years and never even drove on the road

now while it may have been due to wiring or something or other ( shed was old with wiring standards pretty poor i imagine ) , he found evidence of drinking going on in the past ( cans and cigarette boxes thrown about ) and thinks the fire may have been started from youngsters messing around , the farm yard is down a long lane in an isolated area so no one spotted the fire until it was too late

he was wondering if he goes to the guards , will the insurance company then take a different approach , in the case of deliberate starting of a fire , does the process of making a claim against structural damage and motor insurance ( the tractor ) become a different beast , are they less likely to pay out unless a garda report is carried out etc

he thinks if he doesnt go to the guards , if the insurance company assessor decided it was started deliberately , he might not be able to claim , if it was malice , would my uncle have to go to court ( he isnt a very confident or articulate man )
 
Assuming that the poor man has the shed and tractor insured for fire cover, then he should report the matter to Gardai. He is reporting a fire. He does not know the cause. He can give his thoughts to the Gardai and then its up to them.
 
Ravima said:
Assuming that the poor man has the shed and tractor insured for fire cover, then he should report the matter to Gardai. He is reporting a fire. He does not know the cause. He can give his thoughts to the Gardai and then its up to them.
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thank you for your reply , yes but if it was started deliberately , would the insurance be less likely to pay out ?

if a garda enquiry took a long time , would the insurance company refuse to pay out until the matter was closed , seems unlikely anyone would be found if it was deliberate , hay can go up so its possible it was an accident
 
galway_blow_in said:
got a call from one of my uncles today who is a bachelor farmer in his sixties , he has a farm yard away from his house and last night a fire started in his hay shed , the shed is small and not very valuable but not only did he loose about ten bales of hay , he lost an old tractor ( sentimental value was high ) which he had owned for years and never even drove on the road

now while it may have been due to wiring or something or other ( shed was old with wiring standards pretty poor i imagine ) , he found evidence of drinking going on in the past ( cans and cigarette boxes thrown about ) and thinks the fire may have been started from youngsters messing around , the farm yard is down a long lane in an isolated area so no one spotted the fire until it was too late

he was wondering if he goes to the guards , will the insurance company then take a different approach , in the case of deliberate starting of a fire , does the process of making a claim against structural damage and motor insurance ( the tractor ) become a different beast , are they less likely to pay out unless a garda report is carried out etc

he thinks if he doesnt go to the guards , if the insurance company assessor decided it was started deliberately , he might not be able to claim , if it was malice , would my uncle have to go to court ( he isnt a very confident or articulate man )
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The criminal and civil aspects of this matter are separate but they may overlap.

It is proper order to report a crime for a number of reasons. Indeed, failure to report something can look suspicious. Reporting something as a suspected crime does not actually mean that it was a crime. It is for the Gardaí to investigate the potential criminal aspect of the matter. That said, the insurers might, as part of their investigations, speak to the investigating Gardaí to see if there is any relevant information to be gleaned.

There are three points on which there might be trouble with insurers.

1. If the electrical wiring was of a poor standard and contributed to causing the fire there might be an escape for the insurers. Most policies will contain a condition about maintaining the property in a reasonable state of repair. Neglect in this area might be used against a policyholder. That said if the fire was a "good one" any evidence in that respect would probably have been destroyed ! The only unhelpful evidence thereafter would be what comes out of your uncle's mouth......say no more literally or metaphorically.

2. A variation of 1 above could occur if your uncle knew that the drinking and smoking sessions were occurring regularly and he did nothing to stop it. That might be construed as failure to take reasonable steps to prevent a loss occurring and that might be a breach of a policy condition.

3. Finally, the issue of causation arises. The policy wording should provide the answer to this. If the policy cover includes malicious damage there should be no problem either way. However, if it does not the insurer might argue that the proximate cause of the fire was malicious damage and that that is not covered - the insurers would need to prove that if they are going to allege it. Against that, the general rule is that any policyholder carries the burden of proving that a loss was a contingency that falls within the scope of policy cover.

Just tread warily and all should be well....
 
mathepac said:
How was the fire extinguished? Did he call the fire brigade?
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he only called to the outlying farm at mid day on saturday , shed was completely burned so he thought there was no point calling the brigade and collecting a bill for 1500 euro
 
DirectDevil said:
The criminal and civil aspects of this matter are separate but they may overlap.

It is proper order to report a crime for a number of reasons. Indeed, failure to report something can look suspicious. Reporting something as a suspected crime does not actually mean that it was a crime. It is for the Gardaí to investigate the potential criminal aspect of the matter. That said, the insurers might, as part of their investigations, speak to the investigating Gardaí to see if there is any relevant information to be gleaned.

There are three points on which there might be trouble with insurers.

1. If the electrical wiring was of a poor standard and contributed to causing the fire there might be an escape for the insurers. Most policies will contain a condition about maintaining the property in a reasonable state of repair. Neglect in this area might be used against a policyholder. That said if the fire was a "good one" any evidence in that respect would probably have been destroyed ! The only unhelpful evidence thereafter would be what comes out of your uncle's mouth......say no more literally or metaphorically.

2. A variation of 1 above could occur if your uncle knew that the drinking and smoking sessions were occurring regularly and he did nothing to stop it. That might be construed as failure to take reasonable steps to prevent a loss occurring and that might be a breach of a policy condition.

3. Finally, the issue of causation arises. The policy wording should provide the answer to this. If the policy cover includes malicious damage there should be no problem either way. However, if it does not the insurer might argue that the proximate cause of the fire was malicious damage and that that is not covered - the insurers would need to prove that if they are going to allege it. Against that, the general rule is that any policyholder carries the burden of proving that a loss was a contingency that falls within the scope of policy cover.

Just tread warily and all should be well....
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interesting , so in the case of some policies , malicious damage causing fire may not be covered , one would then think its important to enquire as to whether malicious causes of fire are covered under a comprehensive policy , while of course the key is reading the small print , i imagine most people assumed they are covered to deal with any scenario involving fire

if my uncle suspected a few individuals of being involved ( he mentioned several individuals to me before in the past ) , were he to alert the guards to these individuals , things would be very uncomfortable if it turned out they had nothing to do with it , i appreciate that not reporting a potential crime would hurt my uncles case but its not exactly plain sailing making an accusation about someone when you have zero proof , even they were guilty , surely it would be quite difficult to secure a prosecution , i realise its the way to do it when it comes to adhering to the law entirely but is that always practical in a small community
 
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galway_blow_in said:
interesting , so in the case of some policies , malicious damage causing fire may not be covered , one would then think its important to enquire as to whether malicious causes of fire are covered under a comprehensive policy , while of course the key is reading the small print , i imagine most people assumed they are covered to deal with any scenario involving fire

if my uncle suspected a few individuals of being involved ( he mentioned several individuals to me before in the past ) , were he to alert the guards to these individuals , things would be very uncomfortable if it turned out they had nothing to do with it , i appreciate that not reporting a potential crime would hurt my uncles case but its not exactly plain sailing making an accusation about someone when you have zero proof , even they were guilty , surely it would be quite difficult to secure a prosecution , i realise its the way to do it when it comes to adhering to the law entirely but is that always practical in a small community
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POLICY WORDING.

Yes, check the policy wording. Malicious damage may be covered specifically or excluded specifically or the policy may be silent on the issue. If the latter, your uncle simply presents it as a fire claim in which the damaged property is the evidence that an insured event has occurred.

GARDAI.

I readily appreciate the hazards and potential consequences of pointing the finger of suspicion in a rural community.

However, the Gardaí should know what to do and how to do it if your uncle puts certain information before them. I doubt that the Gardaí can do much with general suspicions as distinct from hard evidence.

Ultimately, it is for the D.P.P. to decide whether or not there should be a prosecution and, if so, on what charges. Generally, the D.P.P. will not initiate a prosecution unless, on a general view of the case, there is a reasonable prospect of securing a conviction. On the bare facts, I would think that no prosecution is likely unless there is some solid evidence to link the scene and the suspects.
 
Have the fire brigade done a thorough examination of the scene yet? Have they given any indication what they consider to have started it? Would they typically do a thorough examination if they don't have grounds to suspect anything?
 
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