what does the German French attack on our corpo tax rate say about lisbon 2 sham?

lionstour

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What does the German French attack on our corpo tax rate say about lisbon 2 sham? After all you suckers who voted for Lisbon 2 were offered binding assurances.

SUCKERS.
 
If our corporate tax rate is gone, then we might as well close up shop and all emigrate.

Our Elected Representatives must hold this ground and behave like the rest of the EU by ignoring the rules when it suits them.
 
What does the German French attack on our corpo tax rate say about lisbon 2 sham? After all you suckers who voted for Lisbon 2 were offered binding assurances.

SUCKERS.


This is populist and overly simplified rethoric. Certainly the Lisbon treaty contained guarantees, but this was before the economic crisis highlighted the inherent problems in the Euro, namely the absence of a truly single market & tax harmonisation to make the Euro work effectively. The EU is not like the USA (or other single coherent currency areas) inasmuch as it is a single entity with a singular economic cycle, an integrated economy and easy movement of population. It is a supernational entity attempting to impose a one size fits all monetary policy to divergent economies and economic policies.

This is problematic and needs to be addressed, it was always the case that these problems would arise at some point and need to be addressed. Both the German & French founders of the Euro, Mitterand & Kohl, understood that a crisis would arise, and hoped that this would force Europe into greater political & monetary union *. This of course was the original intent of the founding Rome treaty, so in a sense, the crisis we are now in was orchestrated.


This is not to say that we must be forced to abandon our corp. tax rate or even that we should abandon it. Continental Europe has an inherent advantage economically because it is a continent with an intergrated economy. We are peripheral and reliant on large FDI and hence need the advantage of the rate. This is a solid argument. It is also the case that were our rate to disappear, the foreign firms would be lost to the EU altogether. Again, another solid argument.

But none of these arguments take away from a need to undepin the currency more effectively and deal with the problems that have arisen in a coherent way. This is a Europe -wide fiscal & political problem, and needs to be addressed rationally without resort to emotive, populist and unhelpful descriptions such as "SUCKERS", "Lisbon sham" or Sarkozy histrionics which highlight the problem, but offer no effective solutions beyond ranting newspaper banner & blog hysterics. It's a problem, we need to address it, lets address it, because we all need and want to find the best solution to fix it. If we're going to debate it, then let's debate it rationally, respectfully and meaningfully. With an awareness that others may hold equally valid & contary views to our own.



* The Euro: The Politics of the New Global Currency: Marsh, David (2009).
 
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EU has no power to alter our corporation tax rates - all just politicians letting off steam to please their own voters.
 
If they really want us to change it then they should give us 20 billion grant to build a masstive tunnell to connect us to wales/UK.

And france should have to get rid of all their little loopholes meaning that their companies pay nowhere near the 30% they are supposed to
 
EU has no power to alter our corporation tax rates - all just politicians letting off steam to please their own voters.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Those that pay the piper choose the tune.

You can thank FF for that. Michael Martin should start a German lessons drive instead of Irish.
 
The whole issue surrounding the guarantee on taxation and the Lisbon Treaty was a red herring right from the begining. The guarantee that was given was that nothing in the Lisbon Treaty would affect our CT rate, which is correct. There was nothing in the Lisbon Treaty that would have altered our tax rates or enabled any mechanism to alter our tax rates. However, people were led to believe that by voting Yes to Lisbon 2 that the issue of Ireland CT rate was off the agenda.

It's interesting to reflect on the Yes campaign for Lisbon 2. If you have a look at the [broken link removed] website it lists the following as potential consequences of a No vote:

On the world stage there will be uncertainty over Ireland’s political future
Ireland’s influence in Europe will diminish
Ireland’s international influence will diminish
Foreign Direct Investment both from existing Irish Based businesses and potential investors will reduce
International confidence in Ireland will diminish leading to an increase in the cost of National Borrowing
There will be significantly less appetite in Europe for assisting Ireland in our current economic difficulties
We expect that existing jobs will be lost and potential new jobs will not be created
Ireland will not retain a commissioner
Other EU countries may want to reopen the debate on our corporation tax rate

I think this gives an accurate description of our current situation.
 
What has that got to do with the Lisbon? I think it will find that it is because we managed to run the Country into ground all by ourselves.
 
What has that got to do with the Lisbon? I think it will find that it is because we managed to run the Country into ground all by ourselves.
I didn't run the country into the ground. I spoiled my vote in the last general election, so please don't generalise.

I also voted No for Lisbon. Twice.
 
Come one now, umop3p!sdn - you've been running the country into the ground single-handedly. If it wasn't for that spoiled vote - ah - the country would be a much different place...
 
I didn't run the country into the ground. I spoiled my vote in the last general election, so please don't generalise.

I also voted No for Lisbon. Twice.

Do you want to be applauded for spoiling your vote? You are as bad as the people who don't bother voting but still spend their time moaning about politicians. Ever thought of getting involved and making a difference instead of childish acts that achieve nothing.

Also I would love if you could explain to me how we would be in a better place if Lisbon wasn't passed.
 
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Those that pay the piper choose the tune.

You can thank FF for that. Michael Martin should start a German lessons drive instead of Irish.

Remember, the piper = the German pension system, the payer = Irish taxpayers. We should be calling the tunes because they are depending on our cooperation to feed their pensioners.
 
Remember, the piper = the German pension system, the payer = Irish taxpayers. We should be calling the tunes because they are depending on our cooperation to feed their pensioners.

How are they depending on us?
 
This is populist and overly simplified rethoric. Certainly the Lisbon treaty contained guarantees, but this was before the economic crisis highlighted the inherent problems in the Euro,
.

This is the same rethoric that I heard before Lisbon 2. Those who argued on this site in favour of Lisbon pointed to the guarentees as if they were binding. Anyone who said they were meaningless was accused of being populist and simplistic. So where are we now?

Should someone not have said at the time yes you have a guarentee but its acually not a guarentee, it can be changed in light of changing circumstances? Some guarentee.

Lets look at the facts. Not insult or use the stock criticism that people are being simplistic.

Anyone who voted for Lisbon 2 because they felt that our copro tax was safe because of the protocols were conned and cheated. I t makes a complete mockary of our democracy.
 
It's a problem, we need to address it, lets address it, because we all need and want to find the best solution to fix it. If we're going to debate it, then let's debate it rationally, respectfully and meaningfully. With an awareness that others may hold equally valid & contary views to our own.



* The Euro: The Politics of the New Global Currency: Marsh, David (2009).


SO tell me how do you get around the fact that we were given guarentees by the french and germans and the same people are trying to now openly attack our corpo tax rates? Its a sham. Its a con. Is it not true to say that these guarentees were put in place to get the Irish to vote yes. To stop the collapse to the Lisbon treaty. They meant nothing. Is that not the fact?

So lets discuss it rationally resepctfully and meaningfully but oh but while am at it lets start off by saying
this is populist and overly simplified rethoric
Yea righ very respectful, very rational and meaningful.

No where do you actually address the contradiction I am talking about, instead you give a generalised bland statement of facts that have absolutly nothing to do with the point I am trying to make.
 
The whole issue surrounding the guarantee on taxation and the Lisbon Treaty was a red herring right from the begining. The guarantee that was given was that nothing in the Lisbon Treaty would affect our CT rate, which is correct. There was nothing in the Lisbon Treaty that would have altered our tax rates or enabled any mechanism to alter our tax rates. However, people were led to believe that by voting Yes to Lisbon 2 that the issue of Ireland CT rate was off the agenda.
Excellent point.
 
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