EBS What does an EBS "Variable Base Rate" mortgage mean?

[haveaniceday]

yes exactly - i did not draw down my mortgage until july 2008 ( the loan offer i signed was in Jan 2008)- as far as I was concerned i had a tracker offer but when july came around i was told the tracker was no longer available so they could not give it to me - but i was never asked to sign another loan offer to reflect that change?

 

[haveaniceday]

please see link to archive of the ebs homeloan application form - from aprrox late 2007
it does offer variable and tracker - but its also describes them in exactly the same way - see page 9

 

[haveaniceday]

sorry here it is : https://web.archive.org/web/2007111.../pdffiles/public/ebsmortgagerepaymentform.pdf

 

[haveaniceday]

BUT - here is the mortgage repayment form - from the date / same download page /
exactly as razvan has said NO variable rate mentioned WHATSOEVER !

https://web.archive.org/web/2007111.../pdffiles/public/ebsmortgagerepaymentform.pdf

 

[gnf_ireland]

There were 4 repayment options:
1 Fix rate (preavailing Variable Base),
2 Tracker (for life of the loan, with option to change once without penalty to Fix rate Or SVR)
3 Easystep (deferred payment for first Year...)
4 Flexypayment (self build interest only).

I think there is no doubt that when you signed up to the mortgage, there were 4 valid options as you state above.
However, over time things change and not all were available and some got replaced by others.
This is no different to when I signed up for mine with BOI in 2011, there was fixed rate, variable rate (SVR effectively) and now there are LTV rates. Are you saying I should not be on a LTV rate because it did not exist when I signed up to my mortgage?

With all respect RedOnion I’m just curios because you seem very negative in all EBS threads.
Do you ever work with EBS or do you ever represent their interest?
Or maybe I’m wrong and you just try to advise people following on legal requirments.

To be fair to @RedOnion I have found them to be very constructive on most of these threads.
In the post above he is asking to clarify a very strong statement made below and asking what is the legal basis for this statement. I think that is a very fair question.

here is a large volume of evidence available on line to back this up.

With all due respect to everyone on the thread, a large volume of online evidence means diddly squat here. We are talking about legal evidence as its likely this will need to go through some sort of arbitration to get resolved. The you said/I said does not really work here and people trying to put meaning on terms a decade after they were used is unlikely to work outside of a court.

If there is an issue with the terms of the contract and perceived misunderstandings with it, then you need to be talking solid legal arguments and not opinions on what it says. Of course it would have been much better if the documents said "tracker rate of ECB+1.33%" or "variable rate, no tracker" but they don't.

 

[RAzvan R]

sorry here it is : https://web.archive.org/web/2007111.../pdffiles/public/ebsmortgagerepaymentform.pdf

Is not opening.
Unfortunetly I cant post the picture to show you the loan aplication repayment options.
Variable Base was tracking ECB at specific margins.
Variable rate not specified!!??!

 

[gnf_ireland]

BUT - here is the mortgage repayment form - from the date / same download page /
exactly as razvan has said NO variable rate mentioned WHATSOEVER !

"With the tracker mortgage, the margin is linked to a specified index or indices and remains constant for a specified period. In this case, the tracker mortgage will remain at % above the ECB Repo Rate* for the remaining life of the loan."

The tracker part of the document added clearly states that there is a element which states that the tracker needed to be x% above ECB. It also clearly calls out ECB Repo Rate which is not listed in the variable base rate

Playing devils advocate here, why did someone not question variable base rate at the time if it was not one of the options available ? Surely someone in EBS will eventually ask the same question in court/FSO scenario ?

 

[RedOnion]

Do you ever work with EBS or do you ever represent their interest

No, I do not, not have I ever worked for EBS, or and part of the AIB group.

All the banks had a period where their SVR followed ECB. That did not make them trackers. The only other post I have made in relation to EBS that I am aware of was to reply to another post you had made where I mentioned that just because a rate changed at the same time as ECB did not automatically imply it was a tracker. You have of course posted more details in relation to your situation since that post. You might feel I was negative, but I expressed my views based on the information contained in your post.

My question was in relation to another posters statement that all references to a base rate imply ECB base rate. I have not yet found anything that would support that statement in a legal case.

My reference to AIB was simply an example of a base rate which is defined as something else (and as a side note is referred to in legislation).

 

[haveaniceday]

hi gnf ireland
an article in the independent.ie in the last quarter of 2008 says EBS are stopping trackers but will honour anyone with a tracker offer - so not sure what you mean some thing got replaced by other - if ebs signed people up for variable base rates intending them as trackers and then decided they would become SVRs instead - well that's just fraud - isn't it? and if the application repayment setup only allow you apply for a tracker well then ..... you could only have signed up for a tracker as a 'variable' was not an option open to you .........

 

[RAzvan R]

"With the tracker mortgage, the margin is linked to a specified index or indices and remains constant for a specified period. In this case, the tracker mortgage will remain at % above the ECB Repo Rate* for the remaining life of the loan."

The tracker part of the document added clearly states that there is a element which states that the tracker needed to be x% above ECB. It also clearly calls out ECB Repo Rate which is not listed in the variable base rate

Playing devils advocate here, why did someone not question variable base rate at the time if it was not one of the options available ? Surely someone in EBS will eventually ask the same question in court/FSO scenario ?

Have a look on my thread and on PadKiss coment regarding EBS then probably you’ll change your opinion.
My mortgage is from 2004 and Variable Base was Tracker.
What other people have in their contract I’m not a specialist, I work in management.
I just highlight the repayment options that apply to me at that time.
If you find the word SVR in my contract Hats Off, respect.
I’m Looking forward for EBS to ask the same question as you mention above.

Regards,
RR

 

[haveaniceday]

BTW i had never signed for a mortgage in my life - I would have had no idea WHATSOEVER that the mortgage doc should have said tracker ecb + XX% - not a clue in the world - i did request a tracker and i was send an amended loan offer to sign for after i made this requested change - I did have exchanges with my broker who called the tracker rate a variable rate - all looked ok to me

 

[B26354]

Haveaniceday-So just to confirm;on foot of this e-mail from your broker, your home loan offer that followed contains a rate that is defined as “variable base rate(currently 5.25)”? And you understandably believed this to be the tracker option proposed to you by your broker?

Haveaniceday-So the timeline of you receiving your EBS homeloan offers to draw down is as follows:
1. In 2007 you received an EBS loan offer of fixed rate to roll onto “variable base rate (currently 5.25%)”
2. In January 2008 your broker sent you details of a “variable option” that was a tracker. He said there was also another variable option that was 5.25%(I assume this was the SVR at the time).
3. You agreed to start off on the tracker option and your broker sent off the request to EBS to start you off on a tracker
4. Following this request for the tracker rate, EBS sent you a loan offer with the exact same interest rate wording as original fixed term (Variable Base Rate 5.25%) and this is the offer that your mortgage was drawn down on in July 2008.
5. It was only when you noticed that your repayments were not decreasing with ECB base rate & were actually going up that you contacted EBS. It was at this point that they said you were actually on a SVR as tracker was not available when you drew down cheque in July 2008.

Let me know if any of those details are wrong because if all above is factually correct it suggests that the “variable base rate” is a tracker and not a SVR. And because of the time gap between offer (Jan 2008) and drawdown (July 2008) it also illustrates how EBS changed their interpretation of the “variable base rate” from tracker to SVR in mid 2008.
A smoking gun perhaps.

 

[RAzvan R]

My form is not available to Download from EBS website
This is original form.
Where is the SVR?

 

[B26354]

yes exactly - i did not draw down my mortgage until july 2008 ( the loan offer i signed was in Jan 2008)- as far as I was concerned i had a tracker offer but when july came around i was told the tracker was no longer available so they could not give it to me - but i was never asked to sign another loan offer to reflect that change?

So the variable base rate was a tracker in January 2008 but not a tracker in July 2008.

 

[pguyo]

This is the file RR

 

[haveaniceday]

yes that pretty much how it happened - i have gone thru everything for the past two weeks in detail and that is how it looks exactly

 

[haveaniceday]

so can i ask what are the next steps here - is everyone waiting to see what happens or going to patrick kissane or someone similar to push this on - i am not sure what the best next steps are - ?

 

[pguyo]

I am going to P Kissane once I have all documents from EBS. I dont hold out much hope. These banks have everything in their favour.

 

[haveaniceday]

if patrick kissane is focused on EBS and enough people bring him their scenarios i am guessing the pieces may fall into place - I have always felt some thing a little odd went on with my mortgage but now after understanding the process better i can see what i should have been looking out for back in 2008 - hindsight !
but the big thing here would be to get hard undisputable evidence / facts on what ebs considered a variable base rate or finding more people who like me who, on requesting a tracker was given a loan offer to sign that said variable base rate instead of 'tracker'

 

[B26354]

if patrick kissane is focused on EBS and enough people bring him their scenarios i am guessing the pieces may fall into place - I have always felt some thing a little odd went on with my mortgage but now after understanding the process better i can see what i should have been looking out for back in 2008 - hindsight !
but the big thing here would be to get hard undisputable evidence / facts on what ebs considered a variable base rate or finding more people who like me who, on requesting a tracker was given a loan offer to sign that said variable base rate instead of 'tracker'

I think it’s important you get your case into Kissane but of course that decision will ultimately be up to you.

I think your case is particularly compelling because of the time lapse between your loan offer of tracker & accompanying correspondence with broker & EBS(Jan 2008)and your draw down date(July 2008) when your loan offer became a SVR. It’s the clearest illustration I’ve seen of the re-interpretation of the Variable base rate that I’ve suspected all along.