We have all been massively wronged and should protest

Whether anybody likes or hates FF, they have done remarkable work over the last year
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I suppose you could put it like that.....it is remarkable what they've done.

They are actually the first government who can do whats right for the country without considering public opinion
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You must be joking. FF is the ultimate parish pump follow public opinion, look after own supporters party.

No no no no . . An election would do this country NO good right now .
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Wrong wrong wrong. An election is exactly what the nation needs right now. We need to put in place a government who will be there for the next 5 years with a mandate to from the people to fix the problems. A new government would give an enormous boost to the confidence of the nation - people will be a lot more willing to knuckle down and make sacrifices for a government that they support and have confidence in than one that is unpopular and in paralysis. I can see a huge surge of confidence and energy following a general election. And I bet we'll see an increase in foreign investment following a election - investors are currently afraid to touch Ireland as there is so much uncertainty over the government and whether or not it has the support of the people. They will not invest until they get stability.
 
No no no no . . An election would do this country NO good right now . . Only thing it would do is satisfy the desires of many to see the back of FF. .
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Sounds pretty good to me!

Really, all the 'politicians' need to be cleared out, and a fresh start made, before they do more damage.
The election process is flawed and needs to be fixed.
 

Do you really think a FG/Labour coalition government, led by Enda Kenny and elected on a groundswell of anger from Public Sector employees who will have an expectation of a reversal of pay cuts will be stable or have a cohesive plan that has any chance of working or attracting international capital?
 

I agree to some extent, I will be shot for saying this but Labour are starting to make some sense of late. Far more reasoned policies. Does that mean I trust them, not sure, but the do seem to be the only party that's taken advice and getting down to specifics.

However, now really isn't the time for a general election. It isn't just our own confidence but international confidence. We have to accept our reliance on overseas investment and exports to survive. Any uncertainty is bad at the moment.

Governments have a mandate from the moment they're elected. That mandate covers everything and every scenario during that term. This government has the mandate.

Second, the UK. It's a disaster waiting to happen and they've managed to put off the hounds with a "fake" budget. But it's unlikely that government will be in place to implement it and if they do scrape in, they won't implement it. That uncertainty isn't helping and hasn't helped the UK. All measures taken have been on the basis of the upcoming election. That's what will happen here. We have an election and important, immediate things will be postponed until after.

Part of what's seeing us through right now is the FF plan (well what's there in some form or other) and the fact that FF have up to 2 years left. If that were to change soon, it would impact us quite dramatically.

Hate them, like them, the people under the current system voted them in and they have the mandate until the term expires. I don't see anything coming from FG that would convince me they would be doing anything differently.
 
No. I don't think such as government has any chance.

Ireland is in a hole at the moment, and we need intelligent people with fresh ideas to dig us out. Not the current load of corrupt, incompetents and crap we have.
 

You think investors are afraid to touch Ireland because of our government or the instability of their tenure? ? If anything foreign investors have more confidence in our existing government then we would all like to believe.

You speak of Stability, yet dont factor in that a general election midway through a 5 year term does not exactly inspire confidence nor does it suggest a stable economy . . What if we elect a complete lame duck of a government and end up with another election in 2 years ? You assume a new rainbow government will only bring positives (dont worry, I address this assumption at the bottom of the thread)..

We really and truly could be in the exact same position as Greece right now. Whether you agree or disagree with FF, they have managed to take us from the brink of collapse, to at least being remotely credible and arguably the best of the PIIGS. .

You obviously dont understand international sentiment, particularly when the actions our government have taken over the last year to get our books in order have been highly received (and shown up the likes of UK who have procrastinated over making required cuts).

I cant believe people think voting in FG/Labour will definitely be a change for the better . . We are in a completely differant environment to the one that existed 3+ years ago . . So far, in terms of how FF have managed the crisis, I believe it could of been far far worse . . Labour wouldnt even try to push public service reform (so we would be left with a bloated expensive public service) and FG would simply procrastinate over what to do, while constantly reminding us it was FF who got us in this mess.

And no , Im not a FF supporter, although I would sooner vote for them based on their achievements over the last year, then FG/Labour who we all know will simply walk into the Dail with populist agenda's that may not necessarily be for the greater good of the country.. Right now, we need FF, as they are making tougher, more important decisions to rectify our countries problems then a "populist" government would do.

Never ceases to amaze me how people can be so narrow minded in discussing politics . . Criticism where its due and credit where its due . . The opposition deserve criticism with how poorly they have been over the last few years. . Hell, they were so poor they couldnt even get in the last elections . . I dont see how ANYBODY could confidently say that they believe an alternative government will be better for the country.

I know people who think an "anything but FF" approach to voting is acceptable. . Its disgusting , ignorant and basically shows most people have learned nothing since they blindly voted in successive FF governments . . If anything, we deserved EVERYTHING that has happened to us over the last 2 years, if we believe voting for ABFF (anybody but Fianna Fail) is a way forward for our country . .

I cant begin to try to express my disgust at this close minded approach to politics. Its the culture of politics we need to change, not necessarily the party . .We need to vote for a better politician . . We have to vote for accountability. We have to vote for morals . . We have to demand these things and whether or not its FF or FG or Labour we will have a better government . .

"Ah , but FG/Labour will represent change to the culture of the dail" . .

Really ..................................

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1010/politics.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6991207.ece


Sounds more like more of the same to me . . . . Assumption is the mother of all feck ups . .
 
Latrade said:
I will be shot for saying this but Labour are starting to make some sense of late. Far more reasoned policies.
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Gilmore can't even say if he supports the Croke Park Deal.

Kenny went on national radio purposing an alternative to NAMA without any costings.

We need strong government not those 2 jokers.
 
If anything foreign investors have more confidence in our existing government then we would all like to believe.
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I have to disagree based on speaking to colleagues overseas. A view has developed that there is no point in doing business with a government that could be thrown out at any time (1 breavement could do it) and almost certainly wont be in power for the forseeable future.

In times of crisis you need stability and public support. The current government has neither and this impacts on everything they do.

You also totally discount public confidence. We cannot install public confidence in our economy with the current government. Public confidence and support encourages people to start in business, expand their business, increases consumer confidence and spending etc etc. This alone yield a couple percentage points of growth per annum.

Right now, we need FF, as they are making tougher, more important decisions to rectify our countries problems then a "populist" government would do.
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FF has proven that it doesnt have the appetite for the tough decisions that are necessary. It picks the low lying fruit such as public service wages, stealth taxes, squeeze the middle ranking PAYE worker. It has a 100% flunk rate on the decisions that are needed to get our country going i.e.

1. Take the hit on Anglo NOW - dont throw good money after bad.
2. Significant reform of the health service (eliminate admin waste).
3. Significant reform of SW with an emphasis on protecting the temporary unemployed person and reducing payments to those who are able, but have no intention of working.
4. Cleanout of banking executives - why on earth is the government negotiating with the executives who got us into this mess? They should be negotiating with the owners i.e. the shareholders and saying clean your bank up and sack the incompetents or you wont be in the guarantee.
5. Meaningful reform of the public sector i.e. eliminating the unnecessary through compulsory redundancies rather than the broad brush cut the everyones wages so that those who do a meaningful job suffer to keep those who dont employed.
 
umop3p!sdn said:
Ireland is in a hole at the moment, and we need intelligent people with fresh ideas to dig us out. Not the current load of corrupt, incompetents and crap we have.
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Who are these 'intelligent people with fresh ideas'? How do you propose to put them into positions of power?
 
Who are these 'intelligent people with fresh ideas'? How do you propose to put them into positions of power?
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This is exactly what we need to examine, as it is the root cause of our problems.

Consider how TDs are currently elected. It's no surprise we are in the mess that we're in.
 

Purple, do you honestly think if there was an election tomorrow, Fianna Fail would be removed from power just because of the pay cuts in the PS? There is a lot of anger out there and there are many issues. FF were struggling in the polls before they cut a cent from PS workers.
I am not impressed by Enda Kenny at all, but it is worth remembering that Bertie Ahern was one of out most popular leaders ever and look what he presided over.
 
csirl said:
5. Meaningful reform of the public sector i.e. eliminating the unnecessary through compulsory redundancies rather than the broad brush cut the everyones wages so that those who do a meaningful job suffer to keep those who dont employed.
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Eamonn Gilmore lacks the bottle for public sector reform.

Is Sean Sherlock is the only person in labour who is not pandering to the Unions?
 
If FG & Labour form the next government, would the last person to leave the island please turn off the lights?
 
umop3p!sdn said:
I propose that we find a new, better way of electing TDs.
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But you have no particular suggestion as to what that 'new better way' might be?

To be honest, I go back to my earlier point of 'less drama, more hard work'.

If you want to change the Govt, start with your local TD. Get off your backside and do what it takes to get your choice of TD elected.
 
Firefly said:
If FG & Labour form the next government, would the last person to leave the island please turn off the lights?
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Would a FG/Lab government be any worse than what we have had the last decade?
The last time they were in government from 94 to 97, I don't remember the country going down the tubes. The opposite in fact - I've read respected commentators state that this is when we experienced a genuine boom in our economy.
I've no loyalty to any party by the way. I just find it strange that after the mess FF have made, that many people would vote them back in rather than give the opposition a chance.
 
But you have no particular suggestion as to what that 'new better way' might be?

If you want to change the Govt, start with your local TD. Get off your backside and do what it takes to get your choice of TD elected.
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The first step is for people to realise where the problem is. Then we can find ways to fix it.

The 'local TD' is part of the problem. You should get off your backside and think up new ways we can elect TDs. Unless of course you're happy with the current situation (or want to approach your local TD )
 
I honestly think this is a distraction. Changing the way we elect TDs would involve referenda, and it is not something we should rush into. This would take 2-5 years, with the best will in the world. To be honest, I don't see that the problem is 'the way we elect TDs'. I don't think there is any significant appetite for this kind of change, but by all means, get out there and provide some leadership on the issue. But don't expect to make this kind of change happen with a few AAM postings. It is going to take a lot more than that. How badly do you want this to happen?
 

In effect, this may be where the PS/CS has a lot of power in that if they were united they could shift the balance in the next election. There are certainly plenty of days I wish I had the power to elect or not my own employer. So in a nut shell could FF be voted out for the pay cuts, if you had the entire PS/CS vote against them, maybe.

As to my points on Labour, it's an observation of late that in interviews their approach has been more reasonable and less rhetoric. Again, not a statement that I trust them, I'm fully aware it's their advisors and spin machine, but compared to say FG, Labour are moving in a direction away from trying to score political points (not totally away) and onto providing ideas.

Quinn interviewed yesterday said some interesting things, specific things too. I find it slightly ironic among my more hardened PS/CS friends that they consider their contracts of employment sacrosanct, yet feel the contracts of employment for bankers should be torn up and ignored (pension arrangements etc). Quinn was fairly reflective that they would look at the rewards for senior bankers irrespective of contracts and that there is a reality that pay cuts for the PS would also have to be a reality.

Am I totally convinced? No. Are they starting to make me listen? Yes. Gilmore has gained them a greater platform in the public and they aren't missing the opportunity like FG and Kenny did. I want a bit more substance, but I'm seeing the "green shoots" of hope that we may, with some time have a possibility of an opposition.
 
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