War On Terror

re

Quote:
Point out to us Paul where piggy did not know the above



At the top of the page he asked for proof. That seems fair enough. Back up your arguments and all that.

I've been watching this go on all day. I'd have to agree. There are some frickin weirdos on this website alright who have nothing better to do than give this guy a hard time for their own warped pleasure. I had no problem with anything he said. He also qualified every word of what he said. He certainly doesn' come across as anti-American, pro-Al Queda or anything that could be construed as extreme in my book.

The troll who's wasting everyone's time should go get a life and leave the rest of us to have some serious debate.
 
ElCid

Hi ElCid,

You've made some extraordinary claims, but have failed when challenged (so far) to back them up with any facts.

Please address the specific questions that were put to you.

Awaiting your reply,
James
 
Re.ElCid

I agree that fundamentalist Islam is a dangerous force in the world but it is an abdication of reason in favour of base emotional fears to lump all Muslims into this pot.
Saudi Arabian Islam is a totally different thing to Bosnian Islam, just as the Christianity of the fundamentalist evangelical groups in the USA who oppose the teaching of Darwinian evolutionary principals in schools are a world away from the Christianity of most of the people in this country (or the rest of the US).
You are obviously an intelligent person and I don't like the personalised nature of the attacks on you, or by you, that now fill this thread. To me your opinions are intellectually lazy as they do not seek to properly target the source of your dislikes and fears.
For the record I also regard OBL and his ilk as fascists and would have George W and his gang over OBL any day.

I started this thread to focus on the dangerous nature of the "War on Terror" and how it can/could be used as an excuse to do things, and put in place policies, that would not be acceptable under normal circumstances.

The USA is a great country and on occasion I do find that Piggy can be just plane anti-American but his opinions are for the most part well thought out. That is not to say that I agree with them but they are based on what he thinks, not what he had been told to think.

As I said the USA is a great country but by the nature of it's size and power it does require watching with a critical eye.
 
Re: Re.ElCid

The USA is a great country and on occasion I do find that Piggy can be just plane anti-American but his opinions are for the most part well thought out

Hi purple,

I wasn't going to rejoin this debate for obvious reasons but I think I need to address that remark.

I am NOT anti-American. I am anti George Bush in that I feel he is a threat to the world. I am anti-Bush administration. Period. I have absolutely nothing against the American people. In the same way I have nothing against the people of Iraq.

I am just as opposed to all Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists and all injustice (which was my point all along)...but it seems in this debate that if you stand up against both you are branded some sort of leftie.
 
Re.Piggy

I am just as opposed to all Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists and all injustice (which was my point all along)...but it seems in this debate that if you stand up against both you are branded some sort of leftie.
I form the impression that you can be anti-American on occasion because I see no real proportionality in your criticism of both. GWB is a saint in comparison to OBL. The impression I get in many of your postings there seems to be comparisons drawn between the misdeeds of both.
As for being a leftie, I thing you have established that over numerous posts on many topics on AAM.
Anyway, what's wrong with that?
 
Re: Re.Piggy

I form the impression that you can be anti-American on occasion because I see no real proportionality in your criticism of both

Why does my criticism need to be proportional?

I've always taken it as a given that OBL and all Islamic fundamentalists were pretty bad. I don't really see the point in criticising them. They're quite obviously loonies.
I do see the point in criticising Bush's administration. Please stop saying I'm anti-American. How much clearer do I need to be. The reason I criticise Bush so much is because he is supposed to represent democracy in this world. I don't want any part in that type of democracy. And before all the weirdos come out of the closet again and start accusing me of going and living in a Muslim country, I'm quite entitled to my opinion.


As for being a leftie, I thing you have established that over numerous posts on many topics on AAM.
Anyway, what's wrong with that?


I don't class myself as being leftist at all purple. I'm not anti-globalisation. I'm not anti-capitalist. I'm just anti-spin and anti-injustice.
If I had to put myself somewhere I'd like to be sitting in the middle.

Ask yourself this. How many people are against the occupation of Iraq around the world? Would you class each and every one of them as being leftist?

I know a lot of people who are against the war but would have altogether right wing views on other domestic issues.
 
Piggy

I told you you'd be back piggy.

ReverendJames, I suggest that if you want proof of the existence of the worldwide Islamic movements beliefs and intent that you just visit any 'moderate' Islamic website bulletin board and get reading. Its that simple. Educate yourself.
If you are too lazy to inform yoursel then I don't see the point of wating my time doing it for you. Better from the 'horss mouth'.
Try tping 'Young Muslims UK' into Google and check out what modrate esternisd muslims are thinking. You'll be vey surprised.

PS I did not make the last post that appeared undr my name.
 
Re: Piggy

Hi ElCid,

You're not the only person on the planet to research this topic.

You have made several hate-filled, extremist claims on this website and provided zero evidence to back them up, even when challenged directly to do so.

In the absence of any supporting facts, your claims are simple prejudice and therefore must be treated as worthless.

Regards,
James
 
Elcid

Elcid's views are worthless cos hes a ******* nazi!

No one should tolerate those views. Are you a member of the BNP by any chance?
 
Re: Elcid

Er, Peadar,

I don't think we need to accuse anyone of being a nazi just yet.

El Cid has made some extraordinary claims. If he can back them up, then we should listen to him, and analyse his perspective. Perhaps he is right. He just hasn't provided any rational reason to believe his analysis just yet.

Accusing someone of being a "Nazi" doesn't get us anywhere.

Being a well-read person, I'm sure he will respond with some justification to the specific questions put to him in time. If not, then we can draw our own conclusions.

Personally, I think he will rejoin the debate with some facts to back up the specific challenges made to him, but as yet we're stiill waiting.

Regards,
James
 
Consider

I'll admit I'm not very educated in this matter but one thing strikes me about fundamentalist religions (in general). Was the Roman Catholic church and the Pope not fundamentalist at the time of the Spanish Inquisition? Monty Python sketches aside that went on for over 350 years and why? Again, I'll admit I'm not fully educated but my take on it was that it was undertaken because there were multiple religions at the time (Catholicism, Islam, Protestantism and Judaism) and that a unification was needed to "purify the people of Spain".

Religious and political persecution.

It's still going on today. I can't remember the number of times I was beaten up and had crips-bags full of sick throw over me because I was a Protestant going to school in the inner (Dubblin) city. I used to live in fear waiting for the bus to take me home. Even now, my thirteen year old son is the black-sheep of the class because he was the only one not making his confirmation last weekend. Just because the Islam vs Jewish faith is getting a lot of press recently doesn't mean that the same crap is going on on our own doorstep. I'm only too glad of the ethnic diversity that's been recently experienced here in Ireland. At least our kids will grow up knowing that there's more to the world than white catholics. I read recently in the Sindo of someone who was out on Mauritius recently talking to a taxi driver. He said that there were 4 or 5 different religions on the island and everyone got on great - the problem would be if there was only 2 religions. In our case, that's denomoninations - Protestant and Roman Catholic.

I guess my overall point is that maybe the Middle East was left well enough alone (in their eyes). GWB has gone in trying to enforce democracy on a tradition that was not brought up on democracy. Democracy doesn't suit some countries. It might go right against our grain to see people beheaded or whipped. It goes against mine.

But some people want to see a New World Order where there is one rule of one thumb and that's it. That rule of thumb might advertise itself as being the way of freedom but only if you are willing to subscribe fully to it. Give up all your privileges so that you can be part of one global mode of control. GWB has alluded to it on several occasions. If there are any BitTorrent people out there you can look at the Misc/Documentaries section on www.suprnova.org to read more about police states and how the US government are bringing about an ethos that you should relinquish everything in the name of a safer country and a safer world. The irony is that you sacrifice your true freedom in the name of a freedom portrayed by the governemt. National ID cards etc.

Entire towns are being taken over in the US for the purposes of 'training' troops to deal with containing and controlling peoples' movements. Curfews are enforced. Schools are being used for these exercises too.

So I don't believe that the War on Terror is a war on terror. I believe its more of a war on entities that threaten the norm as defined by the people that have grander delusions. And, in fairness, the majority probably subscribe to those sentiments - fair society, sharing wealth et al.

The news is a filtered medium. Don't believe everything you see on Sky. If you do that, then you're no more than the people who think that Ireland is a bomb ridden place occupied by the IRA and other warring factions.

Don't let some commentator make your mind up about a country and how it's run. Let the people of that country make their own mind up. And if that 'mind' is that democracy is not the right way, good. Let them live with it. There seems to be this notion going around that democracy is the only way forward and that we should make use of our vote. But I'll start another thread about that. This is about the war on 'terrorism'.

Just like 'up the north' - it's not all IRA. I don't know how many three-letter abbreviation associations there are but there's more to it than you hear in the news. Too many times the blame is laid at the feet of Sinn Fein and IRA but there's oodles of them up there at it.

We've all seen recently that the US are bang out of order WRT treating prisoners. That's just in front of camera. I'm sure there's plenty more. And I'm sure the other side is probably as bad if not worse.

We only hear the news-worthy stuff coming out of the Iraq efforts and precious little about what's really going on. I'm not saying there aren't any positives but, if there are, we don't here about them.

So it's been a bit of rant more than anything else but I guess I'm saying that maybe there's a bigger agenda afoot. Maybe this whole oil/petrol price increase thing is hitting everyone in there pockets when it's just a makey-uppy issue just before the US elections and GWB will bring them down dramatically just before election time.

Watch Wag the Dog and you'll get an idea of how powerful the media is.
 
re Elcid

Hey Rev,

You seem like an intelligent guy. What makes you think you'll get a reasonable answer from this guy considering the things he said. Read what he said. There's no other word for it.
 
?

Hi Rev.
As a Rev I presume you are a Christian, so we're really on the same side.
If you really are a Rev you don't need me to explainy Christian values since you must therefore share them.

In defense of my comments...I don't consider them 'hate fillled', simply because all I've done is state the facts. I have no hatred in my heart. You are free to interpret or spin as you wish, but all I'm actually iterested in are facts, and I tend to find my muslim friends to be blunt about their beliefs. They are not ashamed to tell me, or my fellow westerners, that we are deeply wrong, faullty, heretical, and damned because of our rejection of the true faith of Islam!

I'm amazed that you need 'further proof' of the intent of Islam when you already have numerous such open and honest (indeed blunt) examples of what Islam means to its adherents. We've seen at least three countries which can be said to have followed the teachings of Muhammed to the letter. They are:Iran, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia. Each of those countries has invoked Sharia Law as part of the full doctrine of the Islamic faith. This means the practice of barbarities such as stoning adulterers to death, public beheadings of homosexuals, public mutilations by severing hands or feet of thieves, and the wholesale subjugation of women to the role of faceless and powerless chattels of their male dominated society.

Would you like to defend this religion as anything other than fascist by very nature.
 
Learning religions from boards :D

Well well ElCid, so that is where you learned Islam from the bulletin boards. I would invite you to the Israeli boards to and you might even learn Judaism and become an expert in religions.

Bottom line is you know nothing about Islam and all your comments about Islam being threat to west in centuries are rubbish without facts. When it suits you you can go back about what Islam did to your west but when it doesn't suit you you say it's an old story about what your christianity did in this world. If you add it all up I am sure your christianity was far cruel than Islam ever can be. Remember the crusades and the muslims and jews that you burn because they didn't convert? And now remember the Bush's crusade.

Before you go on about Osama maybe you should have done some proper homework and find out who actually created this man and made him hate so much that he can drive planes to the buildings. Before you go on about Saddam you should also check that who put this man in power. Strangely I don't see any muslim country that interferes with any western politics unlike your west does. And why? Greed!! Pure greed because they have something that you don't have and you do all sorts to get your dirty hands on it regardless of what the cost is. For you, the $$$s in your pocket are more valuable than a human being getting killed to put those $$$s in your pocket.

You can't state any facts because you know nothing about Islam and how people live in Middle East also in other Muslim countries. And west will win nothing against Islam as there is nothing to win, it is only people like you that likes throwing gas on fires and stiring $hit because they think they know things. West should learn keep things to themselves and stop interfering with other nations and just trade peacefully. I guess being peaceful wouldn't fill your pockets enough, ha ElCid?
 
ElCid

Seriously, who lets these freaks out of their cells long enough to post on a messageboard?

Go back to your dark rock kid.
 
Iraq etc

I think antiEICid sounds like Bin Laden. I think Eicid does back up his arguements, and the likes of antiEICid and piggy are just extreme muslims, or muslim fanatic travellers. Thank God the west does not contain many people like them. Bin Laden and his friends will only be happy when the west is all muslim. They have said as much. Saddam did pay ( when he was in power ) the families of suicide bombers, not their victims families.
Why does piggy and her head in the sand friends keep trying to tell us black is white ? I am sure during WW2
you would have being telling us Germany was right, simply because the UK and US were fighting it.
 
Re: Iraq etc

Does OBL and his friends want all the West to be Muslim? I'd like to read the source.

Here is a list of OBLs demands:
1) End sanctions on Iraq.

2) No more infringements on Iraqi sovereignty (no more inspections, no fly zones, limits on their importation of weapons, etc).

3) U.S. forces out of the Gulf region and Arabia.

4) Palestinian control over "historic Palestine" (all of Israel).

(Note that USA has withdrawn troops from Saudi Arabia, ended sanctions in Iraq and should be withdrawing from there soon. Nothing done on number four yet.)
 
Anti ElCid

Hi antiElCid.
Your spelling and grammar errors in that post, and the way you construct sentences, leads me to believe that English is not your first language. I suspect you are one of our foreign guests, and probably a muslim given your comments.
I'm glad you made that post because I'm sure that your support for OBL has not gone unnoticed by our readers. Your comments, which attempt to excuse and justify the existence of Islamic terrorism just back up everything I've said about the mindset of even mainstream 'moderate' muslims. You are not doing your people any favours by your response.
Most ordinary Irish people have no axe to grind against muslims, and would be totally against the use of force in Iraq oe elsewhere, but yet your comments illustrate that Islam does not differentiate between the 'friendly west' and the aggressors. To you, we are all westeners and are collectively guilty for the 'crimes' of the west. This is why OBL and Al Qaeda have no difficulty with the concept of intentionally targetting innocent civilians in the west.

When Al Qaeda puts a bomb in Dublin and Piggy or his loved ones are killed, will you still be defending OBL on this BB?

You should read my earlier comments before assuming I 'learned about Islam' from a bulletin board. I lived in the ME and am well read on the subject. I will glady debate it with you if you wish.
Asalam Alaekum.
 
Crusades

Incidentally, it has become de rigeur to describe the Crusades as a bad deed done by Christians. The actual fact is that Islamic armies had conquered large swathes of europe by force of arms befre the Crusads began. The Crusades came about when the Christian kings of europe finally united to drive back the invading Saracens, and they continued diving them back until they were pushed all the way to Jerusalem and beyond.
If it were not for the efforts of thos medieval Christian kings and their people the whole of euroe...indeed probably the whole world, would look more like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan today.

Islam ha ts own versin of Crusdes...we are now well fmiliar with the concept of JIHAD.
 
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