Vulnerable Person who opened an account using a fake name now struggling to withdraw cash using his real name

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Anto41

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Hi all

Looking for some advice here on a tricky situation. My father (who suffers from mental health issues) set up accounts with the EBS in the 80's under a name that wasnt his with no address on the accounts (due to paranoia that he was medicated for). The EBS did not ask for any ID or proof of address at the time nor at anytime until 2011.

I discovered this fact this year as my father is in his 80's and bed bound. I since contacted that building society, explained the situation to them, provided them with a load of statements, bank books and back slips with his signature on them (in the false name) and some old medical records for his where doctors had said he suffered from severe depression and paranoia. I asked the bank what proof else they needed from us that my father and the person on the account are the same person. The bank came back though and basically said that they cant help us as we cannot provide any ID for the name on the account (it went to their legal and vulnerable team).

My issue with this is that the bank never did their due diligence in the first place when taking the money and now they are keeping his life savings without even working with us to find a way through this. Any advice? Im already going to put in a complaint to the finincail sevices ombudmans and im trying to find a solictor to get involved
 
Anto41 said:
The EBS did not ask for any ID or proof of address at the time nor at anytime until 2011.
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So what happened in 2011? Did he provide them with some (presumably false) ID? If not, did they not keep pestering him?
 
stronger money laundering laws came in in the early 2000s. I think he was just lucky with the bank teller he got. But in 2011 the tellers just refused to issue any most cash without proof of ID and address. He just didnt try to take out any money since then as a result. He never provided any false ID just a false name when opening the account
 
It’s clearly a tricky situation but I’d have more than a degree of sympathy for the EBS in this instance. I’d focus more on trying to find a solution rather than complaining. What’s the basis for the complaint? Your father opened an account fraudulently, albeit due a medical/psychological issue. Now the money is tied-up in knots. Whose fault is that? Why the 40 year gap in addressing the issue?
 
Gordon Gekko said:
It’s clearly a tricky situation but I’d have more than a degree of sympathy for the EBS in this instance. I’d focus more on trying to find a solution rather than complaining. What’s the basis for the complaint? Your father opened an account fraudulently, albeit due a medical/psychological issue. Now the money is tied-up in knots. Whose fault is that? Why the 40 year gap in addressing the issue?
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that has been my approach but the bank is saying that there is no solution. Also he would have never been able to open the account if the bank had followed their own processes and asked for ID and proof of address. The purpose of vulnerable teams in the banks is to work with vulnerable persons (old, mentally unwell) to ensure that they are not put at a disadvantage. The blame is shared between the 2 parties - however we are the only ones bringing solutions (i.e handwriting analysis etc..).
RedOnion said:
Was the false name one that he was known as by other people?
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nope just a made up name
 
Was this a non resident/resident account c/o the EBS with the interest going to a non resident?

They allowed these back in the 80's. You opened an account using your own address, the EBS address or another address but nominated that the interest be paid to a third party non resident.

They viewed that it was the person who received the interest and not the account holder that decided if DIRT was paid or not.

You had to sign a declaration to do this.
 
Anto41 said:
Also he would have never been able to open the account if the bank had followed their own processes and asked for ID and proof of address.
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Have you reviewed what the terms and conditions were place at the time he opened the account were? Most I've seen over the years have provisions relating to supplying accurate information.

It's hard to see how the bank could be fully at fault here. Your father very deliberately entered into a fraudulent contract, the bank just failed to detect that fraud.

Bear in mind that using false information to open a bank account can lead to a criminal conviction and a prison sentence. I'd advise talking to a solicitor before pushing this too far.
 
Shirazman said:
How did he get statements without giving them an address to send them to?
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He picked them up in the branch. He was in there regularly. But all the staff he used to be there are retired
Kimmagegirl said:
Was this a non resident/resident account c/o the EBS with the interest going to a non resident?

They allowed these back in the 80's. You opened an account using your own address, the EBS address or another address but nominated that the interest be paid to a third party non resident.

They viewed that it was the person who received the interest and not the account holder that decided if DIRT was paid or not.

You had to sign a declaration to do this.
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No nothing like that. Just a normal savings account
Leo said:
Have you reviewed what the terms and conditions were place at the time he opened the account were? Most I've seen over the years have provisions relating to supplying accurate information.

It's hard to see how the bank could be fully at fault here. Your father very deliberately entered into a fraudulent contract, the bank just failed to detect that fraud.

Bear in mind that using false information to open a bank account can lead to a criminal conviction and a prison sentence. I'd advise talking to a solicitor before pushing this too far.
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Fair points re he terms and conditions and we have chatted to a solictor on it who said there was no criminal impact here as the accounts/nor money was being used for illegal purposes. Plus if we live in a society where an 82 year old man with mental health and a heart condition and who needs a comode to go to the toilet can get a prison sentence, then we are all in trouble. What im complianing about is the fact that the bank is not working with us to resolve this complex matter - they are saying that basically they are keeping the money (or NTMA when it goes dormant)
 
When you opened a savings account with the EBS you signed your name invisibly on the back page of the book. When you made a withdrawal the staff member would compare your signature on the withdrawal docket to the signature on the back of the book using an ultra violet light.

If you father could sign his false name on a withdrawal docket and if you showed them that his signature matched the invisible signature on the back of the book I do not think that they could refuse the payment.

This was the way they conducted their business at that time.
 
I'd consider getting an affidavit written up & witnessed by a Guard, Solicitor or similar / notary. The affidavit stating that your Dad is (real name) is the beneficial owner of the accounts & perhaps explaining the mental health history in succint terms.
Then requesting the funds to be transferred to an account in his real name.

Regarding the criminal aspect mentioned above, if he has a diagnosis supporting his illness back to the dates in question that should be a non issue.
 
Kimmagegirl said:
When you opened a savings account with the EBS you signed your name invisibly on the back page of the book. When you made a withdrawal the staff member would compare your signature on the withdrawal docket to the signature on the back of the book using an ultra violet light.

If you father could sign his false name on a withdrawal docket and if you showed them that his signature matched the invisible signature on the back of the book I do not think that they could refuse the payment.

This was the way they conducted their business at that time.
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interesting - he still has both the original and subsequent bank books. I have suggested to the bank that we could get a hadnwriting analysis done but got no reply to that.
Horatio said:
I'd consider getting an affidavit written up & witnessed by a Guard, Solicitor or similar / notary. The affidavit stating that your Dad is (real name) is the beneficial owner of the accounts & perhaps explaining the mental health history in succint terms.
Then requesting the funds to be transferred to an account in his real name.

Regarding the criminal aspect mentioned above, if he has a diagnosis supporting his illness back to the dates in question that should be a non issue.
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Yeah thats what im looking into aswell and scheduling another call with the solictor to find out how to do this, We have already got Old Age Psycharity invovled and the consultant there had said she could provide a letter re the mental health side
 
Leo said:
It's hard to see how the bank could be fully at fault here. Your father very deliberately entered into a fraudulent contract, the bank just failed to detect that fraud.
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I think it is both inappropriate and incorrect to describe what the OP's father did as ‘fraud’ or that he acted ‘fraudulently’. He opened the account with a different name than the one on his birth cert. But based on what we are told he did not act with deception to obtain an unlawful gain, or wasn’t money-laundering. So it does not appear to be a fraudulent act.

Opening accounts in names other than that on your birth cert was a fairly common practice in the past, for example many with first names of Immaculata or Concepta etc. preferred to use their second name of Mary or Joan, etc. in official documentation. It is unfortunate your father used a totally different name but as has been suggested elsewhere you really need to look at the terms and conditions at the time the account was opened.

I don’t see how the bank can walk away from this. They allowed your father to open and operate the account. It’s your father’s money. He doesn't appear to have acted fraudulently. It is for the bank to tell you what you must do to obtain the money, not for you to suggest solutions.. You could also look at the Central Bank’s Consumer Protection Code 2012. Consumer Protection Code 2012 - published 2015 (centralbank.ie), to see / ensure their response to you in handling your complaint is compliant with the code. [I recently has to deal with an institution on behalf of an elderly relative. We kept hammering them on ‘you tell us what we must do’. They did and the issue was sorted out.]
 
PMU said:
I think it is both inappropriate and incorrect to describe what the OP's father did as ‘fraud’ or that he acted ‘fraudulently’.
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The OP has stated the intention was to deceive, so that falls under the definition.
 
It was impossible to open an account back in the day without an address. The EBS internal forms require an address. What is the address on the book?
 
Where there are mental health issues, it has not been unknown for people to open bank accounts in different names.

there's often a paranoid delusion that "they" are going to steal money & the false name is a way to hide it.

the adopted name usually has some relation to the persons own name, it might be a grandparent or 'as gaeilge', a middle name etc.
 
PMU said:
I think it is both inappropriate and incorrect to describe what the OP's father did as ‘fraud’ or that he acted ‘fraudulently’. He opened the account with a different name than the one on his birth cert. But based on what we are told he did not act with deception to obtain an unlawful gain, or wasn’t money-laundering. So it does not appear to be a fraudulent act.

Opening accounts in names other than that on your birth cert was a fairly common practice in the past, for example many with first names of Immaculata or Concepta etc. preferred to use their second name of Mary or Joan, etc. in official documentation. It is unfortunate your father used a totally different name but as has been suggested elsewhere you really need to look at the terms and conditions at the time the account was opened.

I don’t see how the bank can walk away from this. They allowed your father to open and operate the account. It’s your father’s money. He doesn't appear to have acted fraudulently. It is for the bank to tell you what you must do to obtain the money, not for you to suggest solutions.. You could also look at the Central Bank’s Consumer Protection Code 2012. Consumer Protection Code 2012 - published 2015 (centralbank.ie), to see / ensure their response to you in handling your complaint is compliant with the code. [I recently has to deal with an institution on behalf of an elderly relative. We kept hammering them on ‘you tell us what we must do’. They did and the issue was sorted out.]
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Yeah thats my understanding aswell. They need to tell us what will they accept
 
Kimmagegirl said:
Was this a non resident/resident account c/o the EBS with the interest going to a non resident?

They allowed these back in the 80's. You opened an account using your own address, the EBS address or another address but nominated that the interest be paid to a third party non resident.

They viewed that it was the person who received the interest and not the account holder that decided if DIRT was paid or not.

You had to sign a declaration to do this.
Click to expand...
Good point here.

@Anto41 Is there a possibility that formally identifying himself as the owner of these funds could expose your father to liability to tax, interest and penalties on earnings or other receipts undeclared to Revenue historically?

If so, EBS may be trying to do him a favour. They don't stand to gain either way by this. If they money is unclaimed, eventually it is confiscated by the State under dormant accounts legislation.
 
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