Vouching

[Thanos0]

i am interested in how a court would deal with the following:

Two people are in a separation court case for over two years.

One person after a year starts a business and contracts work from person C.

Income to person C would appear to be €54000 from the public. This is cash in hand.

Person 1 who is the contractor is paid by person C and would get a substantial sum of the €54000 as there is only two of them in the business. (Well they are two sole traders).

Neither person 1 or person c are registered for tax and both are not registered as sole traders.

Person 2 is separating from person 1.

Person 1 gets person c to write a hand written note and claims that person 1 is an employee and not a sole trader.

Person c provides no wage slips or p60 to person 1.

Person 1 has other substantial income.

Person 1 collects cash in hand from person c and nobody keeps any accounts or issues invoices or receipts.

The issue arises when person 2 asks person 1 for income vouching for the separation case.

Therefore person 1 issues a hand written letter from person c understating person 1s income.

This can predicuce trial as income is understated.

Person 2 asks person 1 for proper vouching documents but it's likely person 1 will try to lodge accounts without backing invoices or receipts with revenue.

It is expected that the accounts are understated and person 1 in claiming income of €2000.

It is person 1s second year of trading.

Should revenue accept person 1s accounts in arrears, person 1 would have to pay 10% in arrears extra tax or €200.

This however isn't the correct figures with revenue. This solution however allows person 1 to state the income is much lower for separation court without any invoices or receipts supporting such.

How would a court deal with the issue considering trial date is set?

 

[mf1]

All these persons should have a solicitor - if any solicitor would be willing to on take the cloak and dagger persons!

If there are no solicitors, then these persons had better have some idea how to conduct a case and not just rely on dramatic accusations being flung out there.

And at least one of these persons should try and work on the basis of having to explain to a judge what it is they are trying to say, the relevance of it and any proofs.

Judges are not mind readers, they have a heavy case load and they don't have time to offer a range of suggested positions to an Applicant or a Respondent until that person says , oh yes, that's the situation I was hoping you'd accept.

mf

 

[cremeegg]

Hi mf1

I think it must be fairly common for people to bring patchy evidence of their income before the courts.

How do judges respond where a person says their income is €x but there is a suggestion this is understated.

 

[Thanos0]

It is exactly as cremeegg suggests.

The fact person 1 has an income is not disputed.

The type of employment and the amounts being received are being disputed.

Person 1 will not submit any official documents to support their claim and is simply claiming they have an income of x without any documents.

Therefore person 1 hopes the judge will believe that and that the judge will be forced to make a decision , hopefully in person 1 favour as the judge would not be in a position to disprove or prove income received.

My question is how a judge can arise at a judgement without any details?

 

[elcato]

Person 1 has to make a sworn statement so he is leaving himself wide open for possible perjury charges. Also if the judge does find he was 'economical with the truth' he will probably lay into him for monitory charges.

 

[mf1]

Hi mf1

I think it must be fairly common for people to bring patchy evidence of their income before the courts.

How do judges respond where a person says their income is €x but there is a suggestion this is understated.

Unless the supporting paperwork is rubbish, Judges look for proof from the person alleging that there is more. It is a common cry in family law matters: S/he has loads of money! Loads of it!

And the response is - show us where the loads of money is. Show us any evidence, anything solid.

Where a good solicitor/ accountant comes in is looking at the overall picture - ages, backgrounds, job status, life style, claiming welfare, bank/visa statements and, in some circumstances, engaging a private detective.

These cases also go through Case Progression where all of these issues can be raised.

The OP's queries are very cloak and dagger- and also quite specific in terms of the figures.

What a Judge won't do is accept allegations and make orders without really good reason and , if , as I suspect, this is a lay litigant, their ability to present a cogent case is in question based on the posts to date.

mf

 

[Thanos0]

Case progression took place and person 1 had not handed over income documents.

However, person 1 gave a promise to hand over the remaining documents and both sides provisionally agreed to go trial.

The documents arrived 4 months later.

The income document is a hand written letter.

Person 1 has not and will not produce a wage slip, a P60, a receipt with tax numbers or any official tax documents.

The written letter is signed off by a personal friend of person 1.

Trial is set to go ahead soon