Bank of Ireland Update on Bank of Ireland staff who lost trackers

[Brendan Burgess]

so set about amending computer data, removing documentation from internal internet system that showed what the offering was and what our mortgage accounts were to roll upon maturity.

Hi Ducky

That was a pointless exercise. With 1,800 banking staff, I would expect that most of them kept the documentation at home showing what they were offered.

From memory, what was removed from the system, was a memo posted long afterwards, which said, incorrectly, that people would roll over onto trackers.

While I would love to see the 1,800 staff get their trackers back, like Sarenco, I have not seen any valid argument that they are entitled to them, legally or out of some sense of fairness.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you think, what Sarenco thinks or what I think, the High Court will make a decision on these cases. The Ombudsman has already ruled in at least one case, that the borrower had no right to a tracker.

Brendan

 

[Mollie28]

This is why the issue is so contentious to us staff because we know what we were promised and many of us had access to our live accounts on system where it clearly stated our roll to rate was the Staff tracker only to discover days later that the system records were altered as previous records removed. This is a crucial point in our cases and those records need to be
summonsed as they contain vital pieces of info to substantiate our claims. It’s wrong on so many levels that this corruption is being tolerated.

 

[Sarenco]

Hi Mollie

Was this promise published before or after you signed up for the staff fixed rate?

I don't think anybody contests that a tracker would have been available to staff prior to the withdrawal of this offering to new business at the end of October 2008.

It would certainly be interesting to know if you received a promise that might have induced you to sign up to the fixed rate product, even if that promise was not reflected in the MFA.

 

[todo]

This is why the issue is so contentious to us staff because we know what we were promised and many of us had access to our live accounts on system where it clearly stated our roll to rate was the Staff tracker only to discover days later that the system records were altered as previous records removed. This is a crucial point in our cases and those records need to be
summonsed as they contain vital pieces of info to substantiate our claims. It’s wrong on so many levels that this corruption is being tolerated.

If the records were altered through the user interface then there should be an audit log of that.

If the records were altered manually at the command prompt or via a script then you'd be relying on a whistle blower to come forward.

And as we've seen, whistle blowers have a hell of a lot to loose if they come out in this country......

 

[Mollie28]

Hi Sarenco,

It was both promised and advertised prior to us signing up for it and as far as I’m concerned it was an inducement to get Staff to fix in the first place. From the time that fixed rate was offered it was always on the basis of a roll to tracker but unfortunately for us it was never enshrined in our MFA’s. Subsequent to that then, they released an internal publication confirming that all staff would roll to this rate. I sighted my own account on a live system that categorically confirmed I was rolling to a staff tracker only to see it disappear a few days later.

 

[Sarenco]

Hi Mollie28

It was both promised and advertised prior to us signing up for it and as far as I’m concerned it was an inducement to get Staff to fix in the first place.

That really is very interesting.

I was aware of the (subsequently corrected) insite communication of 9 October 2008 but you are saying there was an earlier advertisement to the effect that a (discounted?) tracker rate would apply at the end of the fixed rate period, even if a borrower was previously on a discounted staff (non-tracker) variable rate and that staffers were encouraged to fix on the basis of this advertisement.

Right?

That would appear to directly contradict the wording of the actual MFAs but it would certainly open a possible argument that borrowers entered into the MFAs on foot of a misrepresentation as to their true terms.

Surely some staffer kept a copy of this earlier advertisement - it can't have just vanished.

Frankly, I'm amazed that nobody ever brought this up before now - it really could be a game changer.

 

[Ducky10]

Mollie28

I am in the same boat as you and saw the details on my account with info on what it was to roll to and then saw it had been removed. I have a copy of the original statement the bank issued confirming that staff would roll to tracker as per their original loan agreement around the time trackers were withdrawn from sale. This statement was withdrawn and a bank apology issued that this was an error. I will post a copy on this forum in the next few days.

 

[Sarenco]

@Ducky10

The subsequently corrected communication of 9 October 2008 is well known but I think Mollie28 is saying that an advertisement in 2006/2007, before staffers fixed, indicated that a tracker rate would apply as the roll-to rate following the fixed-term period.

That's the potential smoking gun - the corrected communication from October 2008 is a red herring.

 

[Linten]

@todo it stands to reason that there had to be some manual intervention by the Bank on a wide scale in order to withdraw the Tracker roll to option on fixed rate contracts. We all know that roll to option was widely available on new and existing mortgages in the period leading up to withdrawal of Tracker in Oct 2008.
For those who have access to Mortgagelink system if you check the 'rate and repayment history' on your mortgage, you will see a 'product switch' under date of 10/11/2008.This did not result in any change to the at the time 2 year fixed rate, no rate change and no correspondence from the Bank as would be normal for a product switch. It may also be coincidental that this happened approx one week after staff were given the bad news that the earlier communication was an error and we wouldn't be getting our Tracker back!!
I have seen this product switch on many customer mortgages who were originally denied their Tracker following a fixed rate term, but have since had their trackers restored.
Maybe this is how the Bank changed the planned roll to rate on fixed rate contracts to deny people their Tracker when their fixed term expired. There had to be some mechanism.
Just to correct one point from @ Sarenco...our trackers were not 'staff discounted trackers' rather standard residential mortgage Tracker with standard commercial letter of offer.

 

[Sarenco]

Just to correct one point from @ Sarenco...our trackers were not 'staff discounted trackers' rather standard residential mortgage Tracker with standard commercial letter of offer.

Yes, that's what I thought but @Mollie28 referred to a Staff Tracker (which is why I put the word in parentheses, followed by a question mark).

Do you also recall the internal advertisement from 2006/07 that Mollie28 is referencing?

 

[Linten]

Can't say I recall seeing the ad, however Staff Banking were hugely active at the time promoting staff offers. In addition as mentioned in last post new/existing customers availing of fixed rates late 2006/07 were all being offered roll to tracker option and Mollie28 has confirmed seeing this roll to Tracker rate on her own account, as have others so don't see any reason to doubt them.
Then you have to consider the initial communication which very matter of fact confirmed that the 2 Year Fixed rate would roll to Tracker on expiry of the term....more evidence in my view that those accounts were on the Tracker 'roll to' rate, before Senior Management had a change of heart. Somewhat worrying is the fact that the same senior management team who presided over the wrongful removal of tracker rates is the same one that is currently presiding over the Tracker examination. BOI would be the only Bank where there has not been wholesale changes at the top.
The biggest ray of hope is the appointment of new CEO, who in her press release, 'personally committed' to sorting out the problem and the grapevine internally would suggest that she is taking a very active and personal interest in current proceedings. The promised update on 15th November will be a make or break day.

 

[Sarenco]

In addition as mentioned in last post new/existing customers availing of fixed rates late 2006/07 were all being offered roll to tracker option and Mollie28 has confirmed seeing this roll to Tracker rate on her own account, as have others so don't see any reason to doubt them.

Yes, I don't think anybody would disagree that up to the end of October 2008 BOI staffers (like all other borrowers with fixed-rate home loans) could roll to a tracker at the end of their fixed-term. But that's not really relevant.

In addition as mentioned in Then you have to consider the initial communication which very matter of fact confirmed that the 2 Year Fixed rate would roll to Tracker on expiry of the term.

By "initial communication" are you referring to the (subsequently corrected) communication of 9 October 2008? That communication is really of no assistance but if somebody could produce a communication to that effect that issued before staffers fixed, that could be a game changer.

The biggest ray of hope is the appointment of new CEO, who in her press release, 'personally committed' to sorting out the problem and the grapevine internally would suggest that she is taking a very active and personal interest in current proceedings. The promised update on 15th November will be a make or break day.

I think you're fooling yourself in that case. If the CEO has clear legal advice to the effect that staffers have no right to a tracker then that is very likely to be the end of the matter (unless somebody is brave enough to test the position in court).

Bear in mind that Directors have a legal obligation to act in the best interests of Shareholders. It would be a very brave CEO that ignores clear legal advice on a Company's legal obligations under any particular contract.

 

[Sarenco]

The Sunday Times is reporting today that BOI has done a U-turn on staff trackers-

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...climbdown-for-bank-of-ireland-staff-p5bvh755q.

 

[moneymakeover]

So you're saying Linten is not fooling himself

I think you're fooling yourself in that case. If the CEO has clear legal advice to the effect that staffers have no right to a tracker then that is very likely to be the end of the matter (unless somebody is brave enough to test the position in court).

 

[Sarenco]

Well, if the Sunday Times report is accurate then I'm more than happy to acknowledge that I was obviously wrong.

 

[ryflava]

Fingers crossed for the rest of us BOI customers that haven't heard anything yet so

 

[todo]

Bear in mind that Directors have a legal obligation to act in the best interests of Shareholders.

Directors also have an obligation to ensure that the bank does what is in the best interest of its customers under the CPC.

I hope this is what happened here.

Maybe there is some hope that the CPC will be enforced.

 

[Mollie28]

The old advertisements and circulars pertaining to this debacle are stored on an old Lotus Notes System. Microsoft Office replaced this in 2010. These records needs to be summoned off that old system . Senior Management who have retired should have their accounts unlocked for further info in this regard. I did say Staff tracker in my earlier post it wasn’t a discounted staff tracker but it was called staff tracker because staff were allowed to avail of the lowest available tracker regardless of LTV

 

[Sarenco]

Thanks for the clarification Mollie.

It will be interesting to see if the Sunday Times report turns out to be accurate. Are they the only media outlet to have reported on this apparent U-turn?

 

[Mollie28]

Yes I think so Sarenco I’m not aware of any others