Case study Unsustainable Mortgage; Meeting bank rep. next week. How to approach it!
- Thread starter breakonthru
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Brendan Burgess
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As Dr Debt says - be honest and open. Surreptitiously recording a meeting is not a good thought.
I agree with Brendan, Recording the meeting without prior permissionis off colour. Asking permission to record the meeting will achieve little, will put your counterpart on-guard and eliminate any meaningful off the record dialogue.Asking someone to accompany you is always a good idea.
A lot has been said about bankruptcy solutions and solutions to be brought about by the new Personal Insolvency Act. By far the preferred solution must be one that comes about by direct negotiation with the lender. So far the banks have failed miserably at it, preferring instead to hold out for unrealistic outcomes. There is some evidence that the banks are beginning to soften their approach in recent weeks and they obviously need to, unless they are content to be inundated with PIA proposals and bankruptcy announcements in the coming months.
A lot has been said about bankruptcy solutions and solutions to be brought about by the new Personal Insolvency Act. By far the preferred solution must be one that comes about by direct negotiation with the lender. So far the banks have failed miserably at it, preferring instead to hold out for unrealistic outcomes. There is some evidence that the banks are beginning to soften their approach in recent weeks and they obviously need to, unless they are content to be inundated with PIA proposals and bankruptcy announcements in the coming months.
breakonthru
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Not recording meeting, what hurts PTSB the most, pitching my solution
The key for me, is what is hurting PTSB right now? Of the 'few' solutions available to me - what's the best from their perspective that will make the deal while maximising income for them?
I wonder what's the true cost to them of realising a 'bankruptcy risk' as Dr. Debt puts it?
I'm veering more towards my own OP 'proposal' augmented by Brendan44 and Dr.Debt advice.
I will write a solution that capitalises arrears, pays unsecured creditors and shows that the 800 - 1000 going to unsecured creditors monthly, could go to PTSB in form of increased interest and a little bit off the capital.
If I publish it here without revealing too much maybe you could comment, critique, polish same?
Thanks guys..
Yeap, no recording. My wife will accompany me, but discussion is hardly 'off record'. He'll have his impressions and will no doubt record same during / after meeting to report to his superiors.?.
The key for me, is what is hurting PTSB right now? Of the 'few' solutions available to me - what's the best from their perspective that will make the deal while maximising income for them?
I wonder what's the true cost to them of realising a 'bankruptcy risk' as Dr. Debt puts it?
I'm veering more towards my own OP 'proposal' augmented by Brendan44 and Dr.Debt advice.
I will write a solution that capitalises arrears, pays unsecured creditors and shows that the 800 - 1000 going to unsecured creditors monthly, could go to PTSB in form of increased interest and a little bit off the capital.
If I publish it here without revealing too much maybe you could comment, critique, polish same?
Thanks guys..
Well fair play to you for trying to deal with this instead of ignoring it. Your wife accompanying you is a very good idea. You've been given some very good ideas on here. Remember this is really all new territory as the banks have been very slow to deal with the problems. But it seems there is a new direction this year. What you need to aim for is a realistic solution that is good for you and good for the bank (if that is possible). When you're thinking what's good for you, also think of what your limit is, for example if the banks want too much for you then your limit is ultimately UK bankruptcy. There is no point in agreeing something that you cannot live with. I agree with Dr.Debt that it's a good idea that you let them know you've also thought of the bankruptcy option. But not in a threatening way. Make sure you listen to them too. See what they are thinking. They also must have decided on a strategy on how to deal with you before this meeting. If necessary don't agree at this meeting but tell them you need time to discuss it with your wife etc. Perfectly normal and can take the heat out of it. Try not to be stressed or pressurised into anything. You could say, let's break and meet back in 2 hours or a couple of days etc. I would take notes, nothing wrong with that, so that after the meeting you are clear as to waht is said (or maybe your wife could take the notes - they're nothing like having it written down to be clear on what is discussed)
I have it on good authority that banks are doing deals, but they won't do it in writing. As previously pointed out they are afraid of the floodgates. You'll have to go with your gut instinct on whether you go with this or not. How to advice you on that is difficult as I have an intrinsic distrust of bankers.
I have it on good authority that banks are doing deals, but they won't do it in writing. As previously pointed out they are afraid of the floodgates. You'll have to go with your gut instinct on whether you go with this or not. How to advice you on that is difficult as I have an intrinsic distrust of bankers.
Brendan Burgess
Founder
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- 52,144
You outlined three proposals in your first post. Which one are you going for?
The rent may just cover the interest payments. But it's a bit risky as rent may fall and interest rates will rise.
We don't speculate about house prices on askaboutmoney, but you will be waiting for them to rise by around 100% for you to recover.
Let's say, for example, that prices don't increase much over the next 5 years. Where will you be then? Still managing properties hanging over you for at least ten years. And you will be 5 years older and less mobile.
I think that you need to bite the bullet now. Go for an option which sees you clear of debt within 12 months or at least a definite date to be clear of debt - even if that is the 6 years of a PIA.
Whatever about the general proposal to the bank, the one bit that I would find it very hard to think they would agree to would be giving you extra money to pay your unsecured creditors off. No matter how much sense it makes from a repayment capacity view I can't see any bank extending further credit where accounts are already in difficulty.
Best of luck with it.
Best of luck with it.
A suggestion is part of mortgaes are been parked for a period of years,
eg 250K you pay back the 150k as part pof your mortgage and then other 100K gets parked for 10 yrs or so with no interest been added, this has been happening with some banks are they realize they have to share some of the burden.
eg 250K you pay back the 150k as part pof your mortgage and then other 100K gets parked for 10 yrs or so with no interest been added, this has been happening with some banks are they realize they have to share some of the burden.
breakonthru
Registered User
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PTSB update, new Letter of Offer, negotiations continuing
Update on meeting with PTSB rep.
Handed in SFS and accompanying documentation.. He went through same with me and fixed / explained a few things. SFS was not designed for multiple properties on the one mortgage but with each mortgage having only one property attached - which complicated things a bit. He wasn't overly interested in any of this as he wanted to discuss a new 'Letter of Offer'.
What he said at the meeting was different to what has transpired since. In a nutshell, i have two loans on tracker rates that according to PTSB should have reverted to full capital and interest after three years. As i had not the earnings to pay capital on the larger loan, i -
a) cancelled both direct debits (but PTSB kept on trying to resend in the original DD mandate which they were not entitled to as per the terms of the DD scheme).
b) i then cancelled the bank account so no new DD mandate requests by PTSB were possible.
c) i continued paying interest only by transfer on the larger loan (and capital and interest on the smaller loan for another 12 months before i got into increased difficulties, then reverted to just interest on that too) as outlined in my OP above.
At that time (perhaps a year ago, if not more) they sent me a 'letter of offer' which had the option to continue tracker and pay full capital with interest on the loans - or - break tracker and go to SVR on higher interest only option for a further two years.
I chose neither and continued to pay interest only on the larger loan at the lower tracker rate since that point..
________
The discussion I had with the banks rep. (which I reminded him in a recent email) was the conversation we had some weeks ago related to the renewal of terms of the original contract but that -
a) all arrears would be recapitalized and
b) i'd remain on the tracker that i currently have,
c) and that this be reviewed after three years.
Interestingly, when the new 'Letter of Offer' did come there were all sorts of mistakes with it -
a) There was a different loan outstanding amount (out by €490 or thereabouts).
b) The arrears in a box was listed as circa €1,080 (as opposed to the true amount of around €58K) and hilariously..
c) The new repayment amount per month was the original loan figure of circa €830k
_____
But apart form these bloopers there was reference to a new rate of 1.5% which in the small print was a variable rate they were offering - with which of course they could increase when ever it suited them.
_____
This 'new' offer is no different in essence the offer sent over a year ago - other then interest rate starts at the lower 1.5% (equaling my present tracker rate) and interest option extended to 3 years as opposed to the original 2 years offered.
_____
The rep did say that -
a) PTSB has no interest or 'operational capacity' to repossess / go legal on any BTL owners who are at least paying the interest amount on their loans 'or close enough to that', as there are loads of home owners / BTL'ers not paying interest either. They need to get 'arrears off their books' and them crystallizing losses now for those paying at least interest is not 'intelligent'.
b) He mentioned a case that went to the high court some months ago - the outcome of which i don't know - but that there was a question as to whether PTSB could force folk like me off trackers who did not switch to paying full capital and interest as per a special condition in their original mortgage agreement...
_____
It seems to me that i shouldn't sign anything unless i get what is the best option for me which is continue to pay interest only at the current tracker rate. It seems that there is simply no drive in PTSB to ultimately force me to do anything and that these 'offers' are like bait to hook me onto something that is less palatable then holding out for a better meal (deal) !
Update on meeting with PTSB rep.
Handed in SFS and accompanying documentation.. He went through same with me and fixed / explained a few things. SFS was not designed for multiple properties on the one mortgage but with each mortgage having only one property attached - which complicated things a bit. He wasn't overly interested in any of this as he wanted to discuss a new 'Letter of Offer'.
What he said at the meeting was different to what has transpired since. In a nutshell, i have two loans on tracker rates that according to PTSB should have reverted to full capital and interest after three years. As i had not the earnings to pay capital on the larger loan, i -
a) cancelled both direct debits (but PTSB kept on trying to resend in the original DD mandate which they were not entitled to as per the terms of the DD scheme).
b) i then cancelled the bank account so no new DD mandate requests by PTSB were possible.
c) i continued paying interest only by transfer on the larger loan (and capital and interest on the smaller loan for another 12 months before i got into increased difficulties, then reverted to just interest on that too) as outlined in my OP above.
At that time (perhaps a year ago, if not more) they sent me a 'letter of offer' which had the option to continue tracker and pay full capital with interest on the loans - or - break tracker and go to SVR on higher interest only option for a further two years.
I chose neither and continued to pay interest only on the larger loan at the lower tracker rate since that point..
________
The discussion I had with the banks rep. (which I reminded him in a recent email) was the conversation we had some weeks ago related to the renewal of terms of the original contract but that -
a) all arrears would be recapitalized and
b) i'd remain on the tracker that i currently have,
c) and that this be reviewed after three years.
Interestingly, when the new 'Letter of Offer' did come there were all sorts of mistakes with it -
a) There was a different loan outstanding amount (out by €490 or thereabouts).
b) The arrears in a box was listed as circa €1,080 (as opposed to the true amount of around €58K) and hilariously..
c) The new repayment amount per month was the original loan figure of circa €830k
_____
But apart form these bloopers there was reference to a new rate of 1.5% which in the small print was a variable rate they were offering - with which of course they could increase when ever it suited them.
_____
This 'new' offer is no different in essence the offer sent over a year ago - other then interest rate starts at the lower 1.5% (equaling my present tracker rate) and interest option extended to 3 years as opposed to the original 2 years offered.
_____
The rep did say that -
a) PTSB has no interest or 'operational capacity' to repossess / go legal on any BTL owners who are at least paying the interest amount on their loans 'or close enough to that', as there are loads of home owners / BTL'ers not paying interest either. They need to get 'arrears off their books' and them crystallizing losses now for those paying at least interest is not 'intelligent'.
b) He mentioned a case that went to the high court some months ago - the outcome of which i don't know - but that there was a question as to whether PTSB could force folk like me off trackers who did not switch to paying full capital and interest as per a special condition in their original mortgage agreement...
_____
It seems to me that i shouldn't sign anything unless i get what is the best option for me which is continue to pay interest only at the current tracker rate. It seems that there is simply no drive in PTSB to ultimately force me to do anything and that these 'offers' are like bait to hook me onto something that is less palatable then holding out for a better meal (deal) !
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Thanks for the update. I think you'll get your own way in the end but boy !! how frustrating it is.
Talking to these bank reps is no better than talking to a computer that has been programmed in a particular way. These Reps have no leeway to negotiate with you, just keep on banging out the same old clap trap.
As long as you keep on paying the interest, I don't think anyone will bother you too much. You are well down the queue of cases to be sorted out.
Interesting that the arrears figure on your latest offer letter was wrong.
I always felt that the banks have been playing around with the "true" arrears figures in their systems. Is this some evidence of that ?
Talking to these bank reps is no better than talking to a computer that has been programmed in a particular way. These Reps have no leeway to negotiate with you, just keep on banging out the same old clap trap.
As long as you keep on paying the interest, I don't think anyone will bother you too much. You are well down the queue of cases to be sorted out.
Interesting that the arrears figure on your latest offer letter was wrong.
I always felt that the banks have been playing around with the "true" arrears figures in their systems. Is this some evidence of that ?
breakonthru
Registered User
- Messages
- 61
I think they're just overburdened with cases like mine but especially for homeowners in a much worse situation then me..
I would like to be a fly on the wall of these collections / restructuring departments. I think the work must be soul crushing particularly for those staff having to chase / coral / remind / 'threaten' homeowners in particular...
One must have a thick skin, or have their sense of compassion quashed with this day-in / day-out drudgery.
I would like to be a fly on the wall of these collections / restructuring departments. I think the work must be soul crushing particularly for those staff having to chase / coral / remind / 'threaten' homeowners in particular...
One must have a thick skin, or have their sense of compassion quashed with this day-in / day-out drudgery.