UK voluntary NI contributions - does that not just reduce your Irish contributory pension?

H

Hooverfish

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Hi there. Slightly different topic to the main thread on this subject.

I have already paid a few years back to buy back the UK NI years where I don't have Irish PRSI contributions.

With the approaching April deadline I'm reviewing my decision *not* to buy back all possible years.

My understanding of how the system works in practice (based on my husband's experience, he is 10 years older, so currently receives pensions) is that if you buy back years for which you have Irish PRSI contributions, all that will happen is that your Irish contributory pension will be reduced.

You apply for your Irish pension first because the qualifying year is earlier. They request your UK contributions. When they receive that information from the UK authorities (and my husband's UK record proved to be inaccurate - we had to fight to get it updated, fortunately we had records...) then the Irish authorities decide on your top up to the higher Irish contributory pension so that the max. you can receive in total, partly from UK and partly from IE, is the Irish full pension.

So I don't see any point even though they are available, in buying back more recent UK years where I already have full Irish PRSi contributions. What have I missed, what experience do others have?

Thanks!
 
My underatanding and experience is that you can buy back UK NI contributions and maintain full irish prsi thereby qualifying to receive both pensions in full.
 
@Hooverfish

To simplify greatly, you can use UK paid NI contributions to enhance your Irish PRSI record to get you closer or all the way to a full Irish state contributory pension (SPC). If you do this of course you can't claim a UK State Pension

But the UK operates an incredibly cheap and generous option to make voluntary NICs to get you to 35 years which will get you the full UK Pension. This does not interfere with your Irish state pension contributory rights at all! It only comes into play if you are using paid UK NI contributions to boost your Irish record which for most people will not make them better off. There are very few circumstances where it would make sense to pass up the UK pension in order to boost your Irish one.

I am on track for both a full Irish SPC and a full UK State pension, the latter mainly via voluntary NICs. When retirement age comes I intend to apply separately for both as my UK NI record is irrelevant for Irish SPC pension.

It would help us if you could outline:

Your age:
PRSI in Ireland: when did you start, what are the gaps:
NI in the UK: when you did you start and end working there, how many voluntary NICs have you paid

It's highly unlikely that it doesn't make sense to buy back all possible UK years.
 
Do any of you know people who have actually claimed in this way? Because I'm telling you from my husband's experience, that Ireland will NOT give you a full pension for the amount that you are claiming from the UK. They make you claim the UK, then they top it up to full Irish. Not both.

I understand you are saying you just won't be telling them. I think this is unwise - the systems are still well-connected and I think they can check without asking you.

I am 62. I moved to Ireland at the age of 31. I bough back 8 extra years of class 2 NI contributions because, when I first started up self employed at the age of 23 in England, I hadn't paid voluntary extra contributions to qualify for pension for some of those years. So I should have a full Irish pension from the UK and Irish contributions but I don't see, given the way that your Irish pension is calculated, that there is any benefit in contributing more than your actual working life between the two jurisdictions.

So, just looking for any real-world experience from people who have found that maximum UK NI buyback has worked in terms of pension received.

Thank you!
 
Hooverfish said:
Do any of you know people who have actually claimed in this way? Because I'm telling you from my husband's experience, that Ireland will NOT give you a full pension for the amount that you are claiming from the UK. They make you claim the UK, then they top it up to full Irish. Not both.

I understand you are saying you just won't be telling them. I think this is unwise - the systems are still well-connected and I think they can check without asking you.

I am 62. I moved to Ireland at the age of 31. I bough back 8 extra years of class 2 NI contributions because, when I first started up self employed at the age of 23 in England, I hadn't paid voluntary extra contributions to qualify for pension for some of those years. So I should have a full Irish pension from the UK and Irish contributions but I don't see, given the way that your Irish pension is calculated, that there is any benefit in contributing more than your actual working life between the two jurisdictions.

So, just looking for any real-world experience from people who have found that maximum UK NI buyback has worked in terms of pension received.

Thank you!
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Just for clarification. Are you saying your husband gets just one pension, from Ireland, and that's the full amount?
How many years of contributions did he have for the UK?
 
Hooverfish said:
Do any of you know people who have actually claimed in this way?
Click to expand...

I've seen many threads from people who claim both. See here and here.

Hooverfish said:
Because I'm telling you from my husband's experience, that Ireland will NOT give you a full pension for the amount that you are claiming from the UK. They make you claim the UK, then they top it up to full Irish. Not both.
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If you have full eligibility for both UK State Pension and Irish State Pension Contributory neither the UK or Ireland can reduce that right on the basis of the existence of the other right. You won't find it anywhere in any legislation that one right eliminates the other. I've checked carefully on this.

Hooverfish said:
I am 62. I moved to Ireland at the age of 31. I bough back 8 extra years of class 2 NI contributions because, when I first started up self employed at the age of 23 in England, I hadn't paid voluntary extra contributions to qualify for pension for some of those years.
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I am not sure I follow, but if you apply before April you should be able to buy back years from 2006 to date to take you up to 35 years needed for a full UK state pension.

It is perfectly possible to buy back UK voluntary NICs for years where you paid PRSI in Ireland.
 
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Although independent financial advisers have indicated that it is possible to claim both UK and Irish state pensions, in full.
I have not seen any official statement or circular from either state body.
They do both produce information about a combined pension, whereby NI or PRSI contributions can be used to make up an individual’s record in either country.

This can be confusing and it would be helpful if someone, who is claiming both pensions, could set out the exact procedure they followed.
As this thread mentions, the two systems are very closely coordinated and making a claim for the Irish state pension appears to, automatically, trigger a coordination of records in both jurisdictions. This is designed to take the UK contributions and use them to make up any shortfall in Irish contributions. So, without being dishonest, how do you stop them doing that?
 
Without being dishonest?

There are many of us who are receiving UK and Irish State pensions, and have been very open in our comments and actions.

As the UK state pension age arrived earlier than the Irish one, I applied direct to UK., and received my full entitlement based on UK contributions.
When the time came to apply for the Irish State Pension I declared what I was receiving from UK. And got the Irish pension based on my PRSI contributions here.
 
Hooverfish said:
You apply for your Irish pension first because the qualifying year is earlier. They request your UK contributions. When they receive that information from the UK authorities (and my husband's UK record proved to be inaccurate - we had to fight to get it updated, fortunately we had records...) then the Irish authorities decide on your top up to the higher Irish contributory pension so that the max. you can receive in total, partly from UK and partly from IE, is the Irish full pension.

So I don't see any point even though they are available, in buying back more recent UK years where I already have full Irish PRSi contributions. What have I missed, what experience do others have?

Thanks!
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Firstly, I am receiving an Irish and UK pension (topped-up with 17 years extra class 2 & 3 contributions) and receive the full pension I am entitled to in each country - no offsetting of one against the other. I am not entitled to a full pension in either country, but the combination amounts to significantly more than I would get if I used my UK contributions to give me a full Irish pension only.

There is an option to add UK contributions to your Irish contributions to entitle you to a full Irish pension (if you're lacking enough PRSI contributions) but in many (if not all) cases a partial Irish pension + a partial UK pension will be a higher amount.
This is partly due to the band system for assessing the Irish pension amount.

Regarding your husband's situation, I obviously don't know what considerations applied - but I can confirm you can claim full pensions in Ireland and the UK.
 
Gervan said:
Without being dishonest?

There are many of us who are receiving UK and Irish State pensions, and have been very open in our comments and actions.

As the UK state pension age arrived earlier than the Irish one, I applied direct to UK., and received my full entitlement based on UK contributions.
When the time came to apply for the Irish State Pension I declared what I was receiving from UK. And got the Irish pension based on my PRSI contributions here.
Click to expand...
I wasn’t suggesting anything untoward, but there is a post, on this thread, where not telling the Irish pension authorities about the UK pension, is mentioned.
Your process is different from the current situation. As the UK pension has now moved to 67 , for most applicants, we will have to apply for the Irish pension first.The Irish assessment includes an assessment of contributions from the UK and I am just concerned that they will, automatically, roll up all the contributions into one pension. Then when I go to the UK , a year later, they will say that all the condributions have already been transferred to Ireland.
 
euroDilbert said:
Firstly, I am receiving an Irish and UK pension (topped-up with 17 years extra class 2 & 3 contributions) and receive the full pension I am entitled to in each country - no offsetting of one against the other. I am not entitled to a full pension in either country, but the combination amounts to significantly more than I would get if I used my UK contributions to give me a full Irish pension only.

There is an option to add UK contributions to your Irish contributions to entitle you to a full Irish pension (if you're lacking enough PRSI contributions) but in many (if not all) cases a partial Irish pension + a partial UK pension will be a higher amount.
This is partly due to the band system for assessing the Irish pension amount.
Click to expand...
I have had a brief look at the application form for the Irish state pension and can’t see the section for this option.
In Part 2, Question 20 asks for a record of employment, outside the Republic of Ireland. This question includes a request for Social Insurance number, but I don’t see any option requesting that these contributions be disregarded and my pension be based, solely, on my Irish contributions.
Sorry, if I am missing something.
 
The pensions service will calculate your pension based on
1. Your Irish PRSI contributiuons only - using average or total basis, whichever gives the highr pension
2. Your combined EU contributiuons ie Irish, UK, or other EU country and then prorate the amount by the Irish contributions/Total contributions

They will pay you the bigger of the two answers
 
Allpartied said:
I have had a brief look at the application form for the Irish state pension and can’t see the section for this option.
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As JPD says - this happens automatically as part of the process. As the Irish pension still has to be applied for on a paper form, I included a covering letter expressing a preference to have separate pensions (don't know if they even take this into account).

I also discovered that it is faster to directly apply for the UK pension (rather than via the Irish pension form). This can be done over the phone in about 10 minutes - assuming that all your information is up-to-date with the UK authorities. When I say faster - I mean get the pension when it is first due. Otherwise it would have been delayed, as the application was late from Ireland to the UK. I would still have received back-payments of course.
 
Allpartied said:
I wasn’t suggesting anything untoward, but there is a post, on this thread, where not telling the Irish pension authorities about the UK pension, is mentioned.
Your process is different from the current situation. As the UK pension has now moved to 67 , for most applicants, we will have to apply for the Irish pension first.The Irish assessment includes an assessment of contributions from the UK and I am just concerned that they will, automatically, roll up all the contributions into one pension. Then when I go to the UK , a year later, they will say that all the condributions have already been transferred to Ireland.
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When will you be applying? I'll be doing it in 2025. That's at 66 in the UK as well Ireland.
 
Gervan said:
Without being dishonest?

There are many of us who are receiving UK and Irish State pensions, and have been very open in our comments and actions.

As the UK state pension age arrived earlier than the Irish one, I applied direct to UK., and received my full entitlement based on UK contributions.
When the time came to apply for the Irish State Pension I declared what I was receiving from UK. And got the Irish pension based on my PRSI contributions here.
Click to expand...
Are you getting MORE than the Irish full state contributory pension amount per week? Or just making up the amount from two different sources?
 
You can get full pensions from the UK and Ireland if you have enough contributions in both systems.

Each system will calculate your pension separately, but taking into acocunt the contributions to both systems. As the systems are quite different and use different rules, it is hard to say what you are entitled too without detailed knowledge of your contribution record
 
Hooverfish said:
Are you getting MORE than the Irish full state contributory pension amount per week? Or just making up the amount from two different sources?
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I get a full Irish State pension, and 2/3 of the UK old amount.
I was able to pay for extra UK years, but not reach their full pension.
Some commentators are receiving full pensions from the 2 states.

The UK system seems particularly complicated, so it's best to just apply.
 
Hooverfish said:
Are you getting MORE than the Irish full state contributory pension amount per week?
Click to expand...
There are helpful and knowledgeable posters on this forum.

Asking vague questions and/or not sharing basic details of you and spouse's contributions history is just not going to get you help.
 
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