I'm pretty sure having a job doesnt disqualify me from the job of a mother. I don't believe you responded to my comment about children of stay at home mothers in my area being left out on the road to play, is that good for the child? It is about as scientific as a man decided on childrens stress levels based on a week observing them in a creche. Do you not believe that a child younger than 5 would benefit from attending some kind of montessori or play school before attending mainstream school or are schools the cause of adhd too and we should all be home schooling?
To work or not to work , baby due , what to do ! !
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truthseeker
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Jubi - I am lost (and not for the first time) with your posts.
Whats all this obsession with binge drinking? Do you think all men binge drink - thats an extraordinary generalisation to make. Women drank long before they had equal rights in the workplace as men - I do not see the correlation between binge drinking and equality at all!!
I wouldnt think that working mothers binge drink anymore than mothers who dont work - I dont think you can link together binge drinking and working habits, nor do I think you can make thr assumption that all men binge drink - there are binge drinkers out there, personal circumstance varies greatly.
I disagree with your comment re childrens behaviour. I dont think it has worsened with modern society or with equality. I think people have greater access to information than they ever did and if a child assualted a teacher in 1950s Ireland in a remote village in the west no one else outside of the immediate community would have known about it, but today its splashed all over newspapers. Its a massive generalisation to say that children are more badly behaved now than in the past.
You are quoting individual studies, that may or may not have been designed correctly with a large pool of subjects and a large pool of control subjects, taking other factors into consideration.
I could go off and google and find you studies proving the opposite.
At the end of the day all you are presenting (with some very odd generalisations) is your opinion.
You think that women cannot have both a career and be a good mother. This is your opinion. Perhaps you cant. Perhaps for you its one or the other.
But that is not the case for everyone.
Whats all this obsession with binge drinking? Do you think all men binge drink - thats an extraordinary generalisation to make. Women drank long before they had equal rights in the workplace as men - I do not see the correlation between binge drinking and equality at all!!
I wouldnt think that working mothers binge drink anymore than mothers who dont work - I dont think you can link together binge drinking and working habits, nor do I think you can make thr assumption that all men binge drink - there are binge drinkers out there, personal circumstance varies greatly.
I disagree with your comment re childrens behaviour. I dont think it has worsened with modern society or with equality. I think people have greater access to information than they ever did and if a child assualted a teacher in 1950s Ireland in a remote village in the west no one else outside of the immediate community would have known about it, but today its splashed all over newspapers. Its a massive generalisation to say that children are more badly behaved now than in the past.
You are quoting individual studies, that may or may not have been designed correctly with a large pool of subjects and a large pool of control subjects, taking other factors into consideration.
I could go off and google and find you studies proving the opposite.
At the end of the day all you are presenting (with some very odd generalisations) is your opinion.
You think that women cannot have both a career and be a good mother. This is your opinion. Perhaps you cant. Perhaps for you its one or the other.
But that is not the case for everyone.
Great post Truthseeker, and i particularly agree with your comments regarding the studies.
Im not going to go into the binge drinking, jubi you must at this stage realise your comments on this make no sense.
After reading (and re reading) your posts i have come to the conclusion you think that women dont want to stay at home as we view women who do as 50's throwbacks and we want to be equal to men and in order to achieve that we feel we must go out to work and earn as much money as our male counterparts. Am i correct?
You also feel that we are willing to sacrifice our children's welfare in order to feel equal to men.
If i am correct and you believe this then that is the most ludicrous view i have ever heard expressed. Do you honestly believe women are that foolish and ignorant and desperate to feel equal to men that we would do that. Can you not for one moment consider that women want to achieve this for themselves?
I do not think that my husband's work outside the home is more valuable than my work in the home and i can assure you neither does he.
I would also be quite confident in assuming there are very few people reading these posts who feel that way either.
Equal does not mean the exact same, men and women can do work of equal value without it being the same this is common sense, i dont know anyone who went back to work for the reasons you put forward.
You unfortunately have a very narrow and distorted view of how people think.
Im not going to go into the binge drinking, jubi you must at this stage realise your comments on this make no sense.
After reading (and re reading) your posts i have come to the conclusion you think that women dont want to stay at home as we view women who do as 50's throwbacks and we want to be equal to men and in order to achieve that we feel we must go out to work and earn as much money as our male counterparts. Am i correct?
You also feel that we are willing to sacrifice our children's welfare in order to feel equal to men.
If i am correct and you believe this then that is the most ludicrous view i have ever heard expressed. Do you honestly believe women are that foolish and ignorant and desperate to feel equal to men that we would do that. Can you not for one moment consider that women want to achieve this for themselves?
I do not think that my husband's work outside the home is more valuable than my work in the home and i can assure you neither does he.
I would also be quite confident in assuming there are very few people reading these posts who feel that way either.
Equal does not mean the exact same, men and women can do work of equal value without it being the same this is common sense, i dont know anyone who went back to work for the reasons you put forward.
You unfortunately have a very narrow and distorted view of how people think.
Jubi, your own arguments are far from scientific. You have started from your own belief and have sort-of-quoted a bunch of studies as though they are perfect examples of statistical research, with nothing to back up the validity of the methodology other than some rather shrill capitalised comments. You offer no peer reviewed references, and studies of this type can be constructed to show anything the originator wants to show; any statistician knows that. A good researcher analyses the limitations of their methodology.
I would venture that this is probably not the place for this type of scientific debate anyway; there are countless arguments and studies for and against. Your problem is that you are not happy that people make choices that you don't approve of and instead of accepting that others are making their decisions in good faith, balancing all their individual circumstances you jump up an down and stamp your feet when people evidently don't agree with your arguments. You would probably be heartbroken if all these children who go to nurseries don't grow up to be delinquents
. Or by the realisation that all these mythical feminists are not binge drinkers Is society perfect? No.
Is it better than it was in the 50’s? Absolutely.
Equality means that people have choices. Women may feel that they have to work in order to attain or attain the lifestyle they want for them and their family. That is their choice. This may have a positive or a negative impact on their children (I am sure there are children who would be better off if their mother or father was at home all day just as I am sure that there are those who would be better off in a crèche) but at the end of the day it is not the function of the state to dictate the details of how parents decide to care for their children.
I do not believe that children are fundamentally worse behaved now than they were in the 1950’s. They might be a little more mouthy but they are less likely to be beaten at home or at school and they are less likely to be abused by those who care for them.
Women may have to work outside the home but they have rights under the law. 40 years ago it was not against the law for a man to rape his wife, it was not against the law for him to turn her out in the street with nothing, even if she was much smarter and earned a good wage if she worked in the civil service she had to leave her job when she got married. Feminism means that women can make their own choices and this also means they can make their own mistakes (just like men) but it’s a damned sight better than being forced to be the prisoner of someone else’s mistakes.
Is it better than it was in the 50’s? Absolutely.
Equality means that people have choices. Women may feel that they have to work in order to attain or attain the lifestyle they want for them and their family. That is their choice. This may have a positive or a negative impact on their children (I am sure there are children who would be better off if their mother or father was at home all day just as I am sure that there are those who would be better off in a crèche) but at the end of the day it is not the function of the state to dictate the details of how parents decide to care for their children.
I do not believe that children are fundamentally worse behaved now than they were in the 1950’s. They might be a little more mouthy but they are less likely to be beaten at home or at school and they are less likely to be abused by those who care for them.
Women may have to work outside the home but they have rights under the law. 40 years ago it was not against the law for a man to rape his wife, it was not against the law for him to turn her out in the street with nothing, even if she was much smarter and earned a good wage if she worked in the civil service she had to leave her job when she got married. Feminism means that women can make their own choices and this also means they can make their own mistakes (just like men) but it’s a damned sight better than being forced to be the prisoner of someone else’s mistakes.
of course it doesnt disqualify you, you merely chose to give that job away to someone else. you have a job and the creche raises your children.
its your choice to abandon your child, you must really love your job. good luck with that.
truthseeker
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Rigoletto - you are making no sense whatsoever.
Do you think that a child going to a creche = abandonment? What rubbish.
How do you qualify the 'creche raises your children' comment? Is it impossible for you to see that a child only goes to a creche during the parents working hours? The way you phrase it one would think a child spends 24/7 in a creche, instead of 8-5 (or 9-6 or whatever), 5 days a week.
excellent post Jubi.
the long and the short of it is women abandoning their children to be raised by strangers in some creche for the sake of their "careers" (probably dead end nine to five jobs). the only acceptable reason to send children (which you have chosen to have) to a creche is economic necessity. by all means return to the work force when the child is school going age but why abandon them when they need you most?
Exactly. Leaving a child in a creche is hardly abandonment!
truthseeker
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Rigoletto - you yourself have stated in this thread that YOU work. So by your own standards you have in fact abandoned your own child.
children are abandoned at creches from as early as 7am and not collected until 12 hours later when all they are ready for is bed. so if they dont see their parents in any meaningful way, i would contend that it is the creche that is rearing them.
my wife chose to be a sahm and as such she raises my children until i return from work and then i help with the parenting. mother and father not total stranger from the creche.
have you children truthseeker?
truthseeker
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But this logic contradicts your earlier points - you are saying people are 'abandoning their children' in creches and the kids are only fit for bed by the time they are collected. How are your children any different by the time you get home from work?
By your logic only your wife has a hand in raising them - not the person who works.
I finsih work early and work flexi time (at the detriment of my career) so that i help in the rearing of my children.
you never answered my question, have you any children truthseeker?
What does that matter? Where somebody does or does not have children does not determine whether or not they can comment on such issues.
What does that matter? Where somebody does or does not have children does not determine whether or not they can comment on such issues.
not it certainly does not i agree clubman but having children does change ones perspective on things. I merely ask the question, if he/she is unable to answer that question thats fine.
truthseeker
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Thats your choice. Time will tell if your children turn out to be 'superior' to those who went to a creche.
What standards would you use to judge that?
What type of differences do you expect to see in your own children as a result of not going to a creche.
Whether or not I have children is irrelevant to my opinion, I believe all mothers should have the choice to work without being made to feel guilty about it.