Time off for Christmas shopping in public service.

[AlbacoreA]

I didn’t bring up working Christmas Eve, other posters made the point that they, as public sector employees, had to work Christmas Eve whereas private sector employees didn’t. I simply made the point that this is meaningless unless it is put in context of overall holiday leave and working hours.

My point is its still meaningless even with that information.

...When making a comparison of staff on €22’000 a year you have to take into account the likely pension benefits (they won’t retire on €22’000), the short working week (35 hours or over 10% less then the standard working week), and the generally better terms and conditions.

True but you'd also have to factor Private sector workers who get good terms and conditions aswell, bonus'es, share options etc. While they may be cutting back on these things at the moment, they didn't over the previous 10 yrs or so.

A friend of mine is a grade 6 public sector employee. He works 35 hours a week, gets 6 weeks holidays plus 2 privilege days plus he can work up one day a month of overtime on his laughable short week (his words). That gives him a grand total of 44 days off a year (plus paid sick leave). His opinion is that most of the people he works with know they have it handy and would be willing to take a pay cut followed by a 12-18 month pay freeze. I don’t know what he gets paid but he said he is one hell of an hourly rate.

I assume thats a senior position, on somewhere between 50k and 80k. So 30 days holidays.
The extra 14 days your spinning into extra leave sounds very like flexitime not overtime which would be paid. Flexitime isn't extra leave at all.
Assume a salary of 80k, over 252 working days is about €320 a day. 50k would be €200 a day.

 

[z103]

€22,000 is also the starting point of the Clerical Officer grade is that such huge money??

Yes it is.
If it is for someone doing front line support and office admin, with no experience, it certainly is. This, you say, is only the starting point! - what on earth does it go up to?

 

[poohbear]

Yes it is.
If it is for someone doing front line support and office admin, with no experience, it certainly is. This, you say, is only the starting point! - what on earth does it go up to?

If its such a huge starting point then how come vacancies could not be filled in the late 90's and early to mid 00's so much so they had to get rid of the bottom four points of the scale!!! People wouldn't touch the C & P Service because the perks like job security didn't factor against bonuses, large wage packs etc which they received when they walked in the door. It was a bit like a certain large fast food chain, Irish people looked down upon those who chose that as their career path.

Its only when there is a downturn that people start to focus in on these old favourites.

The scale goes up to €35,000 after 15 years or so(and stays at that for the rest of your career - ie, the next 25 years). Thats not a bad wage I agree but it won't give you pension of €100,000 per year as the papers would have you believe. Only the Sec Gen of a department having put in 40 years service would receive anything like that - and thats my point!!

Like I have said previously I don't begrudge anybody who made money in the last 10 years or so but I don't and won't apologise for taking the long term view and applying for a CS job.

 

[AlbacoreA]

...People wouldn't touch the C & P Service because the perks like job security didn't factor against bonuses, large wage packs etc which they received when they walked in the door. It was a bit like a certain large fast food chain, Irish people looked down upon those who chose that as their career path. ....

Hence non nationals taken on in the last few years into the Public Sector. Its an indicator in the lack of interest in these roles.

 

[gipimann]

For information, the salary scale for a Grade VI officer (mentioned above) is -

47,675 - 48,869 - 50,314 - 53,022 - 54,643 - 56,656 - 58,683



The 6th and 7th points on the payscale are Long Service Increments, which are given 3 & 6 years after the 5th point on the scale. It takes 10 years to get to the top of the scale.

Grade VI is 3 grades above Clerical Officer which is the entry grade for staff into the service. It would be considered middle management/senior administrator grade rather than top management.

 

[z103]

If its such a huge starting point then how come vacancies could not be filled in the late 90's and early to mid 00's so much so they had to get rid of the bottom four points of the scale!

How much does the equivalent worker get in other countries, for example Poland? or even India?
That's who Ireland is now competing with.

 

[poohbear]

gipimann Re: Time off for Christmas shopping in public service.
For information, the salary scale for a Grade VI officer (mentioned above) is -

47,675 - 48,869 - 50,314 - 53,022 - 54,643 - 56,656 - 58,683



The 6th and 7th points on the payscale are Long Service Increments, which are given 3 & 6 years after the 5th point on the scale. It takes 10 years to get to the top of the scale.

Grade VI is 3 grades above Clerical Officer which is the entry grade for staff into the service. It would be considered middle management/senior administrator grade rather than top management.



This grade 6 then is the equivalent of a HEO in the CS, pay scale is similar, however the Grade 6 gets more Annual Leave and works less hours than a HEO in the CS. This was one of my points earlier that even in the C & P Services there are numerous differentials between like grades.

AlbacoreA Re: Time off for Christmas shopping in public service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poohbear http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=771449#post771449
...People wouldn't touch the C & P Service because the perks like job security didn't factor against bonuses, large wage packs etc which they received when they walked in the door. It was a bit like a certain large fast food chain, Irish people looked down upon those who chose that as their career path. ....

Hence non nationals taken on in the last few years into the Public Sector. Its an indicator in the lack of interest in these roles.

Thats my point! Yet so many give out about "the perks" but won't take the pay to go along with "the Perks"

Its also bloody hard to get into the CS, don't know about the PS. First you must complete an exam then go onto a interview panel and so on. Competency interviews were brought into the CS several years ago and many C Servants will tell you, just completing one of those forms is enough to put you off before you even do the exam, interview, presentation or other equivalent test alongside.

I'll sound old now but when i did my exam into the Cs I was one of 10,000 applicants, I got onto a panel of 500 and then got into the CS via interview (about 200 of us- first big influx after 80's embargo). I have worked hard for promotion since then, internally within the department and interdepartmentally(competitions CS wide) with exams and interviews there too.

The exams draw from grade entrants countywide upwards of 3,000 to 5,000 with maybe 500 getting on an interview panel and maybe 300 of those being called for interview and then probably only 50 getting actually placed - and that was in the good times I expect there will be an embargo of some sort soon.

Just a view point from the inside.

 

[AlbacoreA]

How much does the equivalent worker get in other countries, for example Poland? or even India?
That's who Ireland is now competing with.

Thats a whole new topic, best suited to a new thread on outsourcing public sector services. Can't get a car fixed from someone in Mumbai, or buy a pint of milk off them, or collect dole etc.

 

[z103]

Thats a whole new topic, best suited to a new thread on outsourcing public sector services. Can't get a car fixed from someone in Mumbai, or buy a pint of milk off them, or collect dole etc.

Can you not see that if you increase public sector wages, you are increasing inflation which in turn increases costs and wages in general?

 

[AlbacoreA]

Can you not see that if you increase public sector wages, you are increasing inflation which in turn increases costs and wages in general?

Yes but...

Is it the main cause of inflation? Is it the main reason for our uncompetitiveness?

Why do you want to start talking about increasing public sector wages in this thread?

 

[sue_flaherty]

I agree with some of the latest posts - I am also a civil servant and while I do have 27 days leave + 2 privilege days (!) this is after been in the service for around 20 years . Within this time I have seen the bad times when there was embargos on recruitment and changes of promotion were almost nil. Things improved in recent years which is only reason I have the leave I have now as this is as a result of competive promotion ( as earlier poster says it is not an easy thing to get promote without difficult form having to be fill out first). During my first years the same complaints arose each Xmas re 'privilege days'. Then during the years of the Celtic tiger this was forgotten about as not very many wanted our job and the salary involved. Now as soon as things get a bit rocky these are mentioned again now.

 

[Purple]

If its such a huge starting point then how come vacancies could not be filled in the late 90's and early to mid 00's so much so they had to get rid of the bottom four points of the scale!!!

People did take the jobs; they were just creating them with such speed that it was impossible to fill them all quickly. For example in 2003 there were about 50’000 people working in health, by 2007 that had gone up to over100’000.

 

[AlbacoreA]

Were these jobs all at the bottom of the scale? How much did the private sector jobs grow at the same time? How many of these (both sectors) were filled by non-nationals? What was the demand that required all these jobs. I seem to remember both sectors having problems getting enough people at that time especially at the lower end. The fact that some jobs were being filled doesn't mean there weren't jobs that couldn't be filled.

 

[Purple]

My point is its still meaningless even with that information.

Then your point is incorrect.

 

[AlbacoreA]

Then your point is incorrect.

You mean my point that different jobs, (fireman, officer worker, santa, self employed company director) have different amounts of leave, working hours and days like christmas eve off, so comparing those in isolation, out of context, like you are attempting to, is meaningless.

For those posting and counter posting about time off at Christmas can they please state their total annual leave? It would also be good if they could state their standard working week and if they can work up extra days off by working overtime.

I get 20 days, my minimum hours are 39 and everyone here gets paid overtime. I never work less than 48 hours a week and have taken 10 sick days in the last 18 years, 6 of them for hospitalisation.
Many friends in the private sector work long hours with no time off in lieu, no paid overtime and no paid sick days.....

You're saying thats incorrect, and taking it out of context is valid? Comparing annual leave, overtime, working hours, of say a policeman to an actor? Or a Doctor to a Restaurant owner? Makes no sense to me.

What I don't understand is, if people don't like their hours, and conditions. (I assume that why they are playing the martyr) why not move to a job or career that has better conditions.

I dunno where you are going with that anyway. The topic is time off for christmas shopping. Theres simply no need for that, with internet shopping and late opening hours. Try to find a mechanic or a dentist that works outside office hours, or get a couch or fridge delivered outside office hours now there you might have a case. At the end of the day, the public sector can't afford, or afford to be seen to have, "nice to have", frills like christmas shopping.

As an aside theres no point keeping an office or business open on christmas eve unless theres useful work being done. My local superquinn was open on New Years Day and the staff said they could count the customers on one hand. no point in that. I'm sure its the same for many places public or private on christmas eve too. This should be easy to predict based on previious years activity on these days.

 

[gipimann]

For example in 2003 there were about 50’000 people working in health, by 2007 that had gone up to over100’000.

Without disputing the figures, I just wonder if the 2003 and 2007 figures are comparing the same "entity". In 2003 there were the various Health Boards, in 2007 there was the HSE - which also included the voluntary hospitals and other health-related agencies & organisations which had not been under the HB umbrella and may not have been counted in staff numbers.

By the way, according to the HSE website, there are now 130 000 employed!

 

[gipimann]

As an aside theres no point keeping an office or business open on christmas eve unless theres useful work being done. My local superquinn was open on New Years Day and the staff said they could count the customers on one hand. no point in that. I'm sure its the same for many places public or private on christmas eve too. This should be easy to predict based on previious years activity on these days.

I worked in the public library service in Dublin many years ago, and one year, following phone calls to Gay Byrne complaining that the libraries closed for over a week at Christmas. the City Librarian decided to open for 3 days between Christmas and New Year.

Over the 3 days, the branch I worked in issued 32 books in total - 16 customers. The numbers were similar around the city.

The libraries didn't open again between Christmas and New Year during my time there!

 

[Husker]

I didn’t bring up working Christmas Eve, other posters made the point that they, as public sector employees, had to work Christmas Eve whereas private sector employees didn’t. I simply made the point that this is meaningless unless it is put in context of overall holiday leave and working hours.



Good post Poohbear.
Can you clarify if the Sec Gen of each department can make staff redundant? For example after the creation of the HSE the staff numbers in the Dept of Health should, I would suggest, have dropped considerable. Can the Sec General get 200 staff in a room and say, “sorry lads, we don’t have a job for you anymore; you’re all being let go.”?

When making a comparison of staff on €22’000 a year you have to take into account the likely pension benefits (they won’t retire on €22’000), the short working week (35 hours or over 10% less then the standard working week), and the generally better terms and conditions.

A friend of mine is a grade 6 public sector employee. He works 35 hours a week, gets 6 weeks holidays plus 2 privilege days plus he can work up one day a month of overtime on his laughable short week (his words). That gives him a grand total of 44 days off a year (plus paid sick leave). His opinion is that most of the people he works with know they have it handy and would be willing to take a pay cut followed by a 12-18 month pay freeze. I don’t know what he gets paid but he said he is one hell of an hourly rate.

What's a grade 6 public sector employee? A consultant? And when did his opinion of what his colleagues think make any type of decent point whatsoever?

 

[Purple]

You mean my point that different jobs, (fireman, officer worker, santa, self employed company director) have different amounts of leave, working hours and days like christmas eve off, so comparing those in isolation, out of context, like you are attempting to, is meaningless.



You're saying thats incorrect, and taking it out of context is valid? Comparing annual leave, overtime, working hours, of say a policeman to an actor? Or a Doctor to a Restaurant owner? Makes no sense to me.

You are being obtuse. A person doing an clerical job in the public sector who gets 30 days annual leave but has to work Christmas Eve is still better off than a private sector employee who gets 20 days annual leave but doesn’t have to work Christmas Eve. Your attempt to muddy the water on what is a very straightforward point is bordering on the ridiculous.

What I don't understand is, if people don't like their hours, and conditions. (I assume that why they are playing the martyr) why not move to a job or career that has better conditions.

I agree. I presume you include the public sector workers who were moaning about working Christmas Eve in that group?

I dunno where you are going with that anyway. The topic is time off for christmas shopping. Theres simply no need for that, with internet shopping and late opening hours. Try to find a mechanic or a dentist that works outside office hours, or get a couch or fridge delivered outside office hours now there you might have a case. At the end of the day, the public sector can't afford, or afford to be seen to have, "nice to have", frills like christmas shopping.

As an aside theres no point keeping an office or business open on christmas eve unless theres useful work being done. My local superquinn was open on New Years Day and the staff said they could count the customers on one hand. no point in that. I'm sure its the same for many places public or private on christmas eve too. This should be easy to predict based on previious years activity on these days.

I agree with all of that.

 

[room305]

What's a grade 6 public sector employee? A consultant? And when did his opinion of what his colleagues think make any type of decent point whatsoever?

That's a senior staff officer or a higher executive/administrative officer on an administrative scale. Middle management I guess?