Thinking of selling a rental property? You should probably get a move on...

aristotle said:
Irish Times has a good explanation. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...ted-tenancies-under-new-legislation-1.4730702

Looks like landlords can still terminate a tenancy if intention is to sell
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For now. Just wait for the next legislation change.
I imagine the plan is to get as many landlords as possible into an indefinite tenancy and then flick the switch and take out the termination to sell.
Probably first to come out before that though is the termination for a relative to move in.
But sure you just never know what legislation is next. Seems to be drastic changes bi-annually at this point.
 
OMG_OMG said:
I imagine the plan is
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There is no "plan";) The minister as recently as July pushed through legislation to limit rent increases to inflation, now he's proposing inflation or 2%, whichever is higher. It is just pure political panic.

Anyway I don't think that this is a huge big deal for a committed landlord with a rent close to or at market rates. You can still terminate the tenancy if you need the house yourself or if you plan to sell. Sure, the option for a no-grounds termination after six years will disappear, but not many landlords used this anyway. Rent increases are limited to 2% but if you are close to market rates this isn't a huge deal and might be in line with what you would do for a good tenant. Rents are objectively high right now and it's hard to see them getting much further away than the overall price level in the economy.

The big fear for landlords was the mooted prohibition on ending a tenancy to sell the property. The government (possibly for constitutional reasons) has stepped back from this.

IANAL but I think there are still big constitutional question marks over this, particularly as the rent cap of 2% is indiscriminate and is not related to either the needs of the tenant nor the means of the landlord. The Supreme Court judgements from 40 years ago made clear that rent control measures should be temporary and should not be indiscriminate. For example you could have a rich tenant on a rent of 60% of market rates with a hard-up landlord who would need decades to get the rent back to market level. This is arbitrary and unfair. For a legal challenge would need a landlord with deep pockets to take on the RTB in the High Court and ultimately Supreme Court but I think it is something that we're likely to see in the next number of years.
 
I agree there is no plan - policy changes are purely reactive, driven by Sinn Féin's rise in the polls. I also can't understand why there hasn't been a court challenge to the legislation. As far as I can see any challenge would have a very good chance of success.
 
Mocame said:
I agree there is no plan - policy changes are purely reactive, driven by Sinn Féin's rise in the polls. I also can't understand why there hasn't been a court challenge to the legislation. As far as I can see any challenge would have a very good chance of success.
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If you lost though you would be ruined. Not to mention the media with your picture up every day portraying you as satan.
They prevented a group of landlords challenging it some years ago. Something about not being allowed to take a case as a group and also having to fund it as an individual without financial help from anyone else. How very convenient.
 
Not a great article. They focus on tax too much as usual. Too little on LL protections and risk. But at least they mention it...at the bottom.

The extent of the housing crisis was laid bare once again on Wednesday after it was revealed there are 64,000 fewer homes to rent today than five years ago.

The number of rentals has fallen from almost 341,000 in 2017 to under 277,000 now, a drop of nearly 20%


Homelessness campaigner Mike Allen, of housing charity Focus, dubbed the decline ‘the Flight of the Landlords’.
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extra.ie

64,000 fewer homes to rent as owners sell up in droves - Extra.ie

The extent of the housing crisis was laid bare once again on Wednesday after it was revealed there are 64,000 fewer homes to rent today than five years ago.
extra.ie extra.ie
 
“You can still terminate the tenancy if you need the house yourself or if you plan to sell.”

Yes, that’s what they are saying for now.
But given the rate they’ve been changing legislation over the last few years, are small LL’s supposed to believe them?
What’s to stop them just waiting until small LL’s are locked in to indefinite tenancies and then flicking the switch ( as OMG said) and systematically removing each of the grounds under which a LL can get their property back?
I won’t be trusting them anyway.
I’ll be either be renting to tenants I feel are the least likely to want “indefinite tenancies” or just not renting out my property at all.
I only signed up to be a landlord until my kids are of age to move into the house.
There’s no way I’ll jeopardise that from happening.
Would rather leave the house stand idle or take it back to use myself for weekends than to get locked into an indefinite tenancy.
 
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DaRoons said:
“You can still terminate the tenancy if you need the house yourself or if you plan to sell.”
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No you can't if it's has become a tenancy if indefinite duration. If you entered a new lease in June 2021, then if the tenants stay, then it won't become a lease of indefinite duration until six years have elapsed (i.e. June 2027). Upto that point you can take property back to use it for yourself or a children.

If you go past June 2027 with these tenants it if they move out and new tenants move in,they it becomes a tenancy of indefinite duration after six months.
 
PebbleBeach2020 said:
No you can't if it's has become a tenancy if indefinite duration. If you entered a new lease in June 2021, then if the tenants stay, then it won't become a lease of indefinite duration until six years have elapsed (i.e. June 2027). Upto that point you can take property back to use it for yourself or a children.

If you go past June 2027 with these tenants it if they move out and new tenants move in,they it becomes a tenancy of indefinite duration after six months.
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Whoa, hang on a minute, that quote was by another person commenting .
I copied and pasted it on to my response to them.
For some reason the quote didn’t come through as an attachment.
I was “answering” that particular point they made.
 
DaRoons said:
Yes, that’s what they are saying for now.
But given the rate they’ve been changing legislation over the last few years, are small LL’s supposed to believe them?
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I am quite sure the Minister wanted to prohibit part 4 extensions for existing tenancies and to remove the right to terminate a tenancy in order to sell the house. Neither of these are in the proposed amendments.

I am guessing that the Attorney General is at the limits of what he regards as constitutional here. This is the fifth amendment to the RTA in five years.

There hasn't been a committee hearing, Dáil or Seanad debate yet but I expect these issues to be teased out when they are.
 
I'm very confused, as are a number of other people I would imagine. Can I ask people to clarify so what happens in each of the following situations or scenarios?

A) Tenants moved into the property in Janaury 2021 and signed a 12 month lease. They are now in a Part IV tenancy and entitled to stay in the property upto six years (January 2027), at which point, the landlord can terminate the tenancy. The landlord is permitted to annual increase the rent by the lower of the inflation rate or 2%. Also, the landlord is permitted to terminate the tenancy at any point (having given the requirement notice period to the tenants) if he/she intends to sell the property, or use it him/herself or a family member needs to use it. Is all that correct? My understanding was that this was correct.


B) Tenants moved into the property in Janaury 2017 and signed a 12 month lease. They are now in a Part IV tenancy and entitled to stay in the property upto six years (January 2023), at which point, the landlord can terminate the tenancy. The landlord is permitted to annual increase the rent by the lower of the inflation rate or 2%. Also, the landlord is permitted to terminate the tenancy at any point (having given the requirement notice period to the tenants) if he/she intends to sell the property, or use it him/herself or a family member needs to use it.

However, say the landlord doesn't give notice to the tenants, the tenants don't voluntarily leave the property etc and at the end of the 6 years, a new tenancy is enacted, this would happen in January 2023. As this would be a new tenancy, after 6 months of this new tenancy (July 2023) the tenancy becomes one of indefinite duration. In terms of the landlord from that point onwards getting vacant possession of the property back, is that still possible? I know laws can be changed again etc, but at this moment in time, in this scenario, can the landlord give notice to the tenants in say 2028 that he/she intends selling the property and wants the tenants to move out?

I think this scenario isn't allowed, otherwise, what's the change in the situation to before this new proposed legislation??? Thanks in advance.
 
PebbleBeach2020 said:
Is the any date for when all this legislation will be passed and the tenancies of indefinite duration will kick in?
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You can follow progress of the Bill here. It has had a Committee and a Seanad reading with amendments.

Cross-referencing the changes across the existing legislation, the bill as initiated, and the bill as amended would take several hours that I don' t have.

I still don't see any amendment that would prohibit a landlord seeking vacant possession for a sale.
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
You can follow progress of the Bill here. It has had a Committee and a Seanad reading with amendments.

Cross-referencing the changes across the existing legislation, the bill as initiated, and the bill as amended would take several hours that I don' t have.

I still don't see any amendment that would prohibit a landlord seeking vacant possession for a sale.
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thanks. I think i will email the ministers office and ask what are implications and if I'm permitted to do so. I'll also email the RTB.

There is a lack of clarify and "grey area" here and open to different people's different interpretations.
 
PebbleBeach2020 said:
thanks. I think i will email the ministers office and ask what are implications
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There is no point for now. They will just say the legislation is going through the Oireachtas.
PebbleBeach2020 said:
and if I'm permitted to do so. I'll also email the RTB.
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Ditto. They will issue advice when the legislation is finalised.

You will almost certainly have time to make decisions once the legislation is passed.
 
if commencing a new tenancy in January 2022, what would be the implications for tenancies of indefinite duration is my question or worry?!
 
PebbleBeach2020 said:
thanks. I think i will email the ministers office and ask what are implications and if I'm permitted to do so. I'll also email the RTB.

There is a lack of clarify and "grey area" here and open to different people's different interpretations.
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It's not up to Ministers or the RTB to give legal advice. Whatever legislation is passed will stand. If you need advice on interpreting it, you'll need to engage legal advice. There is the possibility that the RTB might issue guidance at some stage, but they're not going to be able to give definitive legal advice on every individual scenario.
 
RetirementPlan said:
It's not up to Ministers or the RTB to give legal advice. Whatever legislation is passed will stand. If you need advice on interpreting it, you'll need to engage legal advice. There is the possibility that the RTB might issue guidance at some stage, but they're not going to be able to give definitive legal advice on every individual scenario.
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I'm just asking can a landlord still obtain vacant possession even if a tenancy of indefinite duration has been established due to the property being put up for sale? I don't require a full legal explanation of the Bill.
 
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