The stock market never goes down anymore

Discussion in 'Investments' started by TheBigShort, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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  2. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Founder

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    Stocks, bonds and property may well be overvalued. But they are worth something. They produce income.

    Cryptos are completely different. They are not an asset. They are worth nothing despite people being prepared to pay $14,000 for them.

    Brendan
     
  3. odyssey06

    odyssey06 Frequent Poster

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    Let's hope so, maybe I can retire early!

    I don't plan to rely on Bitcoin, but it might pay for some nice holidays:)
     
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  4. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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    If it transpires that everything is overvalued, what then? Is the global financial system caught in a deflationary trap?
     
  5. cremeegg

    cremeegg Frequent Poster

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    Bonds are highly valued for a number of perfectly understandable reasons. Most emanating from the 2008 crash. At that time there was a fear that counterparts would default. This has left a legacy of seeking safety over return with some investors. Legislation inspired by the crash tightened capital requirements for banks and insurance companies, pushing them towards bonds. Further legislation required pension companies to more closely match their assets with their liabilities, again pushing them toward bonds.

    Stocks are highly valued because interest rates are so low. Because profits are rising. Because politicians are in tax cutting mode.

    Property is highly valued, in Ireland at least, because we aren't building much of it. Because over 50% of the cost is going to the government. Because the Irish planning system, does not so much plan as say no. Because the construction industry is undercapitalised. Because the construction labour force has shrunk. Because banks are unable or unwilling to lend.

    I dont think so. I believe that we may be at the beginning of an resurgence of inflation. Not this year or next but after the present period of prosperity winds down.

    Money is becoming more plentiful, labour markets everywhere are tight. Politically many tensions would be dissolved by a dose of inflation.
     
  6. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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    Ok that explains why bond prices have risen and yields are next to zero. It doesnt explain why stock markets are rising. If some investors (a significant enough proportion to drive yields to near zero) are seeking safety over returns, where is the money for stock markets coming from?

    I agree profits are rising, economic activity is increasing. But it hardly correlates with the record prices in US stock markets? At least I wouldnt have thought so.


    Try London, Manchester, New York, Toronto, Vancouver, Sydney, Melbourne, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Shanghai etc.

    If banks are unable or unwilling to lend then that implies low or little increase in activity. If they are not lending to build, why are they lending to buy property?
     
  7. joe sod

    joe sod Frequent Poster

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    Well the US dollar has fallen from a high of 1 euro = $1.05 a year ago to 1 euro = $1.22 now so that is one asset that has fallen in value. If you convert the gains in US stock market back to euros its not so great. Also gold has not risen very much only recently heating up a bit. Maybe a good strategy is to to buy half gold and half US dollars, I know they are generally opposite assets
     
  8. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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    Thats a fair re dollar to euro but I would have thought it also implied that there is no significant appetite from euro investors in US stocks?
    Not an insignificant factor in subduing prices I would have thought?
     
  9. RedOnion

    RedOnion Frequent Poster

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    Hi TBS,

    You mentioned quantative easing on another thread last week. One of the expected side effects of QE is that it should create consumer demand, and kickstart price inflation. We haven't really seen that, but instead because QE is buying up all the bonds, the extra supply of money is being pushed elsewhere and driving asset price inflation instead.

    There's also a school of thought that a move to passive investment is leading to stock price inflation - funds have to invest in the whole index, and therefore there is less thought going into investment decisions.
     
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  10. TheBigShort

    TheBigShort Frequent Poster

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    I dont disagree. That means either bonds are overvalued or stocks are overvalued. Or perhaps both are overvalued?
     
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  11. Jim2007

    Jim2007 Frequent Poster

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    But the majority trackers do not in fact invest in the whole index. Be very careful what you invest in, read all the documentation not just the factsheet and the KIID... you often find in there that they are allowed to use all kinds of synthetics as substitutes.
     
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  12. joe sod

    joe sod Frequent Poster

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    the heading of this post "the stock market never goes down anymore", well we have had fairly hefty sell offs in the mean time. The ftse 100 is now back to where it was at end of 2016. Its true that we have had very little volatility since january 2016 until february this year. I think all the volatility now gets compressed into shorter time periods, therefore when there is volatility like now its fairly large swings down and smaller ones back up. Its times like now to paraphrase alex ferguson when "its squeeky bum time" for amateur investors
     
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  13. Gordon Gekko

    Gordon Gekko Frequent Poster

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    The FTSE 100 isn’t a great barometer though...too much exposure to commodities, financials, and the UK domestic economy with its Brexit-related woes.