The Roadmap for Deemed Disposal

There's a lot of discussion around how things may or may not be taxed within an ETF but I still don't see how that's relevant to the Irish exchequer tax take? Revenue should be focused on whether or not Irish taxpayers are avoiding paying tax on their investment gains.

As I noted before, you can avoid tax on gains for long periods by investing in individual companies that don't pay dividends or a property that isn't rented out. They have been happy to allow this for many years. On the other hand they call the same thing via ETFs tax avoidance and create a rule to prevent it. If anything there can be more avoidance via the shares or property as at least the ETF is taxed on death.
 
This is different from an actively managed Fund
It's not. CGT isn't charged on these funds, taxation fall on the ultimate beneficial owner. Active and passive are both the same. Both handle dividends the same way, although the active manager may choose to reinvest the cash received on a different company's shares.
 
It's not. CGT isn't charged on these funds, taxation fall on the ultimate beneficial owner. Active and passive are both the same. Both handle dividends the same way, although the active manager may choose to reinvest the cash received on a different company's shares.
I think I understand that. That is the CGT avoidance surely. The Active Fund is buying and selling shares away, these are CGT events, but tax free - it is wrapper. If the owner of units doesn't sell for decades, the fund value is rolling up tax free. Something must be done to capture that tax, hence the DD.

The point is Passive Index Trackers are different from a CGT standpoint. There is no active trading, just rebalancing say when a company leaves the index which could give rise to a loss or a gain. They are, however, treated exactly the same as the actively managed funds disposing of shares tax free perhaps on a daily basis. It is necessary of course to deal with reinvested dividends in a Passive Index Tracker and, possibly, the limited CGT events involved, but the DD is a sledgehammer here.
 
They are exactly the same.
I'd be very grateful if you could let me know how this is so.

@Duke of Marmalade who is very knowledgeable on this area explained to me that they are not.

Take this example. I set up an Passive Tracker which to track a particular index buys €100 shares of company A, €100 shares of company B and €100 shares of company C. The Passive Index Tracker is worth €300. Company C triples in value to €300. The Passive Index Tracker is now worth €500. No CGT is involved here. Passive Index Trackers are low cost for retail investors per @Duke of Marmalade because there is very little work involved. It just passively tracks an index so no need to keep buying and selling. The Passive Tracker rises or falls based on the rise or fall in value of its underlying shares.

I set up an actively managed Fund and decide to buy €100 shares of company A, €100 shares of company B and €100 shares of company C. After 2 months, I decide that company C will increase in value, so I sell A and B at a profit (CGT event) and put everything into company C. I am correct and my Active Fund increases in value to €600. I later decide that C is at the end of its run and that I should sell half (CGT event) and invest the proceeds in company D which I spot is undervalued and so on.
 
The reason for selling is different, but it's not different in terms of taxable event.

If you hold an individual stock, it doesn't matter whether you choose to sell it because you personally think it's overvalued, or you are a forced seller because it's bought out by another company.

It's the same CGT disposal either way, for an individual and for a fund.
 
I'm curious why government needs to base ETF treatment with reference to how life company policies are taxed?

Why can't they all be wound up and put all these types of funds on the same tax treatment that makes sense and encourages a broader pool of the population to invest?

Even better one that encourages people to choose lower cost alternatives to what life companies offer. Based on people's reticence to go the execution only AVC route im sure this change would not put the life companies out of business but it would create competition.
 
@Greenbook I applied through Revolut for my very first ETF. €50 - us dukes ain't as well off as we used to be. :(
The attached Key Information Document, provided by Revolut confirms my understanding of how these guys work.
Note that it is not possible to but a US ETF with Revolut as they do not provide a KID which is a legal requirement in the EU.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
The option of going the UK route would seem to be blocked as tax neutrality would dictate that Life policies should follow suit.
But distributing etfs are not equivalent to life funds (accumulating etfs probably are) ,they are equivalent to shares. What do you mean by tax neutrality? , if they are distributing etfs you have to file a form 11 return every year anyway. Therefore by also lumping distributing etfs with life funds and accumulating etfs you are making those the least attractive of all in terms of tax, that is not being tax neutral at all but actually creating a taxation system to discourage investors from investing in these .
 
I set up an actively managed Fund
What if your actively managed fund decides to take long buy and hold positions and doesn't change them? Should the tax treatment of the fund change? What if the investment mandate of your passive fund is changed and it becomes and active stock picker fund?
 
But distributing etfs are not equivalent to life funds (accumulating etfs probably are) ,they are equivalent to shares.
Have you considered the single premium life fund with regular monthly withdrawals? This would be equivalent to a distributing ETF, and it is subject to LAET.
 
I've gone through this with @Duke of Marmalade who is an actuary and understands these things from his insurance company background. He very clearly explained how Index Trackers operate.

If I set up an Index Tracker, I just buy shares in the index in the proportions they make up the Index. Those share values just rise and fall with the Index. I don't do much except likely reinvest dividends and maybe deal at some point with a company being taken over or taken private.
Far be it from me to disagree with His Grace, but my unworthy, even pathetic, understanding is that this is not, in fact, how tracker funds are actually operated.

There may be many stocks in the index that are not traded in the numbers that would be necessary for all the index-tracking funds to buy them in the quantities required. (Obviously, this depends on exactly which index you are tracking — it's feasible to hold every stock in the FTSE 100, but not every stock in the FTSE All-Share. And it's generally not feasible with global indices, small-cap indices, etc.)

And there's another tier of stocks that could be purchased in the required numbers, but the amount of trading involved, relative to the volume of trading these stocks normally attract, would be such as to affect the price of the stocks, which would defeat the whole point of the exercise — the index funds would be setting the index, not tracking it.

Finally, remember that the index takes no account of transaction costs. So the more you attempt to replicate the index by entering into stock transactions, the more your performance net of costs will inevitably underperform the index. Some stock transactions are of course inevitable, but it's often cheaper to track a stock through derivative products than it to hold the stock, so the rational course is to do that.

Even where buying every stock in the index is feasible, it's usually the most expensive way of tracking the index. Take the FTSE 100 index — it is possible to track that by buying all 100 stocks in the index. But stock prices change all the time, so every quarter the index composition is reviewed; a few stocks drop out of the index. because they are no longer among the top hundred companies by market capitalisation, to be replaced by stocks that have entered the top 100. If you're tracking the index by holding the constitutent stocks, you have to sell your entire holding of the "relegated" stocks and buy holdings of the "promoted" stocks. And, in another quarter, you have to sell your holdings of more relegated stocks, and buy the newly-promoted stocks — quite possibly, buying back holdings that you dumped just three months ago. In a typical year, there are between 8 and 20 constituent changes in the FTSE 100 index. That costs the index nothing, but if you have to replicate that by buying and selling the stocks concerned in the appropriate volumes, it will cost you a lot. And of course you'll be realising losses or gains every time.

Index-tracking managers, generally speaking, do in fact engage in stock selection — as in, they decide which stocks in the index they will purchase and which they will not. But they do not to this by attempting to project which stocks will outperform; they aim to identify a representative subset of the index stocks, chosen to match the index’s key risk factors (sector weights, credit quality, regional exposure, size, style, etc), if possible steering clear of stocks that are at greater risk of dropping out of the index. And then they refine that with a range of synthetic or derivative instruments intended to hedge against the risk that the performance of their chosen stocks will diverge from the performance of the index. The balance between actually holding stocks and doing devilishly clever things with derivatives and synthetics will vary both from index to index and, for a given index, from manager to manager.

So, passive managers are entering into stock purchases and sales, perhaps more often that you suppose, and they are entering into other more sophisticated transactions involving various derivative instruments which also involve taxable events when e.g. options are exercised or released, futures contracts mature, etc..

So both passively and actively managed funds do realise gains and losses, and they do receive income.
 
@tom Edison, thank you very much for explaining all that. Quite different what @Duke of Marmalade said.

I never realised that passive trackers involved options being exercised and released, futures contracts maturing, derivatives and synthetics. I've no idea what any of these things are or what, for example, an option being released involves. Do actively managed funds use these as well or do only passive trackers need to use them to match the chosen basket of companies, FTSE 100 for example?

Other questions I asked the Duke

1. Do other countries impose a DD on passive index trackers. It appears to be a peculiarly Irish approach - everybody else just deems the dividends to be distributed and taxes them. Is that correct?

2. If that is incorrect and other countries, because of the tax avoidance nature of passive index trackers, impose DD, why are passive ETFs so wildly popular among retail investors abroad and not here. Is the aversion to the DD a peculiarly Irish phenomena?
 
I never realised that passive trackers involved options being exercised and released
I want to avoid macho competition with @TomEdison.

Below is an extract form the Vanguard S&P 500 ETF.

Objectives: The Fund employs a passive management – or indexing – investment approach, through physical acquisition of securities, and seeks to track the performance of the Standard and Poor's 500 Index (the “Index”).
Where not practicable to fully replicate, the Fund will use a sampling process.

The Fund may use derivatives in order to reduce risk or cost and/or generate extra income or growth. A derivative is a financial contract whose value is based on the value of a financial asset (such as a share, bond, or currency) or a market index.
Essentially you see that this large fund is a passive holder of replicating stocks of the index. You are right that this fund will have less trading than an active fund. But it does reinvest dividends and that is the main reason that it needs to be subject to DD.
Do you not think this discussion has run its course?
 
Have you considered the single premium life fund with regular monthly withdrawals? This would be equivalent to a distributing ETF, and it is subject to LAET
No ,why dont you give more detail in your replies ? Explain in detail what you mean by this product, in any case a small niche product cannot be used as a comparison with mass market ETFs to justify the "crude" tax treatment and inappropriate categorization by revenue.
 
small niche product cannot be used as a comparison with mass market ETFs
You've got things backwards. The ETF is the niche product in ireland, and the single premium life assurance fund is mass market.

You keep saying that a pooled investment traded on the stock market is not the same as a pooled investment in a life assurance wrapper. You then say that they are different because one makes distributions and one doesn't, then don't accept being asked to consider similar behaviors in both products.

I'm not sure what you are driving at with these repeated points and inferences of collision between domestic financial services companies to keep the public away from ETFs.
 
Just to add to this conversation, I studied the revenue balancing statements for the last two years and made a clear decision to offload my single share portfolio. I found that dividends were taxed at the marginal rate, subject to prsi and usc at 8%, effectively a 52+ % tax on any dividend. That’s totally unfair when I am taking the risk. So they are gone.
This government needs to make the tax system fairer for those that are putting their money at the risk of the markets.
 
Just to add to this conversation, I studied the revenue balancing statements for the last two years and made a clear decision to offload my single share portfolio. I found that dividends were taxed at the marginal rate, subject to prsi and usc at 8%, effectively a 52+ % tax on any dividend. That’s totally unfair when I am taking the risk. So they are gone.
This government needs to make the tax system fairer for those that are putting their money at the risk of the

It’s even more complicated than this

Taxation of US ETF dividend income

Direct holding compared with the same dividend received through an Irish fund

The direct holding is taxed by reference to the investor's marginal rates. The Irish fund calculation uses the 38% exit-tax rate after the fund has suffered US withholding tax.

Direct US ETF holding

A gross dividend of €100 is subject to €15 US withholding tax, so the investor receives €85. The gross €100 dividend is declared through ROS. Irish Income Tax is calculated at the investor's marginal rate, and USC and PRSI also apply where relevant. The €15 US withholding tax is credited against the Irish Income Tax liability.

At a 20% Income Tax rate, the Irish Income Tax charge is €20. After the €15 credit, only €5 remains payable through ROS. At a 40% Income Tax rate, the charge is €40. After the credit, €25 remains payable. USC and PRSI are additional in both cases.

The final net dividend is therefore not fixed. It depends on the investor's marginal Income Tax, USC and PRSI rates.

US dividend received through an Irish fund

The same €100 US dividend is reduced by €15 US withholding tax before it reaches the Irish fund. The fund therefore receives €85. The individual investor receives no personal credit for the €15 because the tax was suffered inside the fund.

The €85 is then taxed at 38%, producing an exit-tax charge of €32.30 and a final net amount of €52.70. Total tax leakage is €47.30, equal to 47.3% of the original dividend.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top