The Reality of Education Cutbacks

[Purple]

Exactly.

I might be wrong, but didn't the teachers themselves, via the unions, opt for increased salaries as opposed to decreasing class sizes?

Yep, that's the real reason. If the last round of pay increases had not been given then there would have been no increase in class sizes.
Anyway, please ignore this foray into reality; we should all get stuckin some "gubberment" bashing.

 

[Complainer]

Bear in mind that our teachers start on 41k, versus 22k stg in the UK.

Ours end up on 70-75k if they have an A-post.

I know a part-time teacher on 85 ph.

All this pushes up pay costs, leaving less to spend on non-pay.

Would you like to put those figures in context, against our cost of living, and our property prices, and the respective pay of bankers/solicitors/IT managers etc in Ireland and UK?

 

[sidzer]

For many newly qualified teachers sitting in a staff room waiting to be called can be the norm. On a good day you may be busy but other days you are waiting about and might only get 1 or 2 classes to cover. It's very hard to secure a permanent post in teaching.
No doubt wages in Ireland are high but this is across the board from the top jobs - right down to our minimum wage earners and social welfare payments. It is not fair to single out teachers - I live on the border and I can't think of a service that is cheaper on the southern side and that must include the people who are bashing teachers. As a society we need to all take responsibility if we want to get out of this mess that we are in.

 

[shanegl]

Would you like to put those figures in context, against our cost of living, and our property prices, and the respective pay of bankers/solicitors/IT managers etc in Ireland and UK?

Instead, how about putting it in context of our balooning national debt, the cost of servicing same, and our dwindling tax take?

 

[UptheDeise]

The fact of the matter is that wages are going to have to come down by around 30% across the board. Yes public sector and private sector workers wages as well.

I had friends that worked in the private sector in manufacturing jobs that a trained chimp could do. Yet their unions demand and were successful in getting them very high wages. Incidentally they've lost those jobs a while back because of wage costs.

No surprises there then.

 

[Protocol]

Please note that although I posted some details on teacher's pay, I am not totally critical of their pay rates.

They, like many sectors of Irish society, have among the highest pay rates across the EU. I am not singling them out.

However, if we as a nation choose to spend x% of our national income on education, and we pay well above EU average teacher pay, then we must accept that there is less left over for non-pay, buildings, labs, smaller class sizes, etc.

But, we will tend to hire better teachers than other countries.

I have often noticed that on TV, UK schools seem to be well equipped. But they pay 22k stg to new qualified teachers.

Perhaps it's a trade-off.

Maybe having well-qualified graduates, motivated, etc. in large classes will compensate for the larger classes??

 

[Purple]

Would you like to put those figures in context, against our cost of living, and our property prices, and the respective pay of bankers/solicitors/IT managers etc in Ireland and UK?

Very good point; all of the things you have listed have dropped considerable over the last 12 months... that is what you are saying right; that since across the economy costs and wages are dropping and this should apply to teachers as well?

 

[thebop]

It's true that UK schools are far better equipped than ours. One example is that they have been using interactive whiteboards for years whereas they are very few and far between in this country.

The argument between the cost of paying teachers vs putting the money into infrastructure could go on and on but there is no doubt that the job needs to be appealing to attract the best people into it. Fact. If Batt was so concerned with this generation's one and only chance at attaining a decent education then he might take the lead by forgoing the top up on his pension that he has been receiving since he retired as a lecturer in CIT. If I earned his 200K I think I could certainly survive without that extra 12K.

And just on the comments by people who themselves were taught in large classes, don't forget that RESPECT was a key ingredient which is all too often missing in our classrooms today. I was taught in large and sometimes split classes while I was in primary and it certainly didn't affect me adversely. But when I hear some of the things kids say to teachers these days, I am constantly amazed as I wouldn't have dreamed of being so cheeky / rude / downright disrespectful when I was young and I'm sure many of you would feel the same.

Edit to address the OP - I fully understand your frustration. My own school only managed to retain our number of teachers with 2 kids to spare, that's far too close for comfort.
I think that your story is only the tip of the iceberg - the full extent of cutbacks won't be felt til the new school year begins and it becomes apparent that classes are that bit fuller as schools try desperately to hang to teachers for the following year. Also, the effects of Special Ed cuts will be devastating for the kids involved. We as a society won't fully count the cost of taking help from the most vulnerable for years to come.

 

[Purple]

there is no doubt that the job needs to be appealing to attract the best people into it. Fact.

There are many applicants, suitable qualified, for each teaching job. The notion that there is some sort of brain drain out of teaching because of pay is utter rubbish.

On your point about respect I agree but with the caveat that the violent and useless thug who taught me in primary school is still teaching in the same school, indeed he now works as a special needs teacher. Until teachers themselves demand that the detritus is removed from their self professed “profession” the general public will rightly be reticent about affording them the respect that they so openly think they deserve.

 

[thebop]

There are many applicants, suitable qualified, for each teaching job. The notion that there is some sort of brain drain out of teaching because of pay is utter rubbish.

On your point about respect I agree but with the caveat that the violent and useless thug who taught me in primary school is still teaching in the same school, indeed he now works as a special needs teacher. Until teachers themselves demand that the detritus is removed from their self professed “profession” the general public will rightly be reticent about affording them the respect that they so openly think they deserve.

I wasn't suggesting any sort of 'brain drain' but if the job isn't appealing in terms of renumeration, then people pick other careers.

I agree that the bad teachers should be weeded out and left to rot.

But I take issue with a couple of things in your final point - firstly, the only place I encounter any form of 'reticence' is on forums like this and other media outlets. I'm thrilled to say that none of the parents of the kids I've ever taught hold a grudge or show me a distinct lack of respect because of things which are 100% out of my control. Rather, they focus on the amount of work I put into educating their children. And yeah, I do think I deserve a little respect for the work I do. I'm not any part of the 'detritus' that gives my profession a bad name so why would I accept shabby treatment from anyone with a chip on their shoulder which has been settled in place for years? I'm truly sorry that you ever encountered that 'violent and useless' thug but don't tar us all with the one brush. Such a brute is the exception rather than the rule, most of us put our heart and soul into the job so that we can make a difference in children's lives.

 

[Purple]

I agree that the bad teachers should be weeded out and left to rot.

But I take issue with a couple of things in your final point - firstly, the only place I encounter any form of 'reticence' is on forums like this and other media outlets. I'm thrilled to say that none of the parents of the kids I've ever taught hold a grudge or show me a distinct lack of respect because of things which are 100% out of my control. Rather, they focus on the amount of work I put into educating their children. And yeah, I do think I deserve a little respect for the work I do. I'm not any part of the 'detritus' that gives my profession a bad name so why would I accept shabby treatment from anyone with a chip on their shoulder which has been settled in place for years? I'm truly sorry that you ever encountered that 'violent and useless' thug but don't tar us all with the one brush. Such a brute is the exception rather than the rule, most of us put our heart and soul into the job so that we can make a difference in children's lives.

By stating that "the bad teachers should be weeded out and left to rot"
you Separate yourself from the minority of bad teachers. My problem is with those that seek to defend the minority of bad teachers while lamenting the lack of respect for teachers.

As to the pay issue; there has never been a time when we were short of suitable and suitably qualified people to work as teachers. Therefore this cannot be used as a justification for the massive pay increases over the last 10 years or so. I do not work as a teacher so I am not in a position to say whether they are overpaid or not but the fact is that if pay costs take a bigger proportion of the education budget then spending on facilities, special needs teachers, classroom assistants etc will be reduced with the consequent impact on services delivered.

 

[thebop]

By stating that "the bad teachers should be weeded out and left to rot"
you Separate yourself from the minority of bad teachers. My problem is with those that seek to defend the minority of bad teachers while lamenting the lack of respect for teachers.

As to the pay issue; there has never been a time when we were short of suitable and suitably qualified people to work as teachers. Therefore this cannot be used as a justification for the massive pay increases over the last 10 years or so. I do not work as a teacher so I am not in a position to say whether they are overpaid or not but the fact is that if pay costs take a bigger proportion of the education budget then spending on facilities, special needs teachers, classroom assistants etc will be reduced with the consequent impact on services delivered.

Of course I separate myself from bad teachers! I am in no way defending these people (and I don't know why you thought I would) so I am only "lamenting" the lack of respect without defending substandard educators.

There is an oversupply of teachers at present due to the high intakes in the colleges of education and the addition of the online post grad offered by Hibernia. If the powers that be had any sense, they would be drastically reducing the numbers on their courses for the foreseeable future but that's a different issue.

The massive pay increases to which you refer have worked to make the career a more appealing one and neither you nor I can say fairly whether or not they are earned or not. In the same way, I wouldn't presume to comment as to whether or not you deserve the wage you earn. I for one am proud to be part of a union that has worked so hard to get better renumeration for us - after all that's why I pay my subscription.

The fact that the budget allocates more money to the people working in education than the resources / infrastructre it needs says more about the inadequacies in our government's budgeting in my opinion. We had years of prosperity when the government could have pumped money into improving our schools, facilities, resources and numerous other worthy areas. It needn't have come at a massive cost to the taxpayer either if they had stipulated to the many wealthy property developers that schools should be part of their plans when building housing estate after housing estate but no, those fat cats weren't to be burdened with such mundane, pesky issues. Now we're simply reaping what they have sown.

 

[Purple]

Of course I separate myself from bad teachers! I am in no way defending these people (and I don't know why you thought I would) so I am only "lamenting" the lack of respect without defending substandard educators.

My point is that as long as the teaching unions defend these bad teachers (and I am sure their numbers are limited) then de facto they are setting the standard by which all teachers can be measured at that low level (however unfair that may be) and by remaining silent about their unions stance other teachers give tacit support to the bar being set at such a low level.

There is an oversupply of teachers at present due to the high intakes in the colleges of education and the addition of the online post grad offered by Hibernia. If the powers that be had any sense, they would be drastically reducing the numbers on their courses for the foreseeable future but that's a different issue.

There has been an oversupply of teachers for years but I agree with you on the second part of your point.

The massive pay increases to which you refer have worked to make the career a more appealing one and neither you nor I can say fairly whether or not they are earned or not. In the same way, I wouldn't presume to comment as to whether or not you deserve the wage you earn.

There was no need to make it more attractive; there was never any shortage of applicants. I agree that I cannot say whether or not pay levels are earned or not as it is a meaningless point. Pay levels should be increased ‘till the required numbers of suitable people are available to do the job.

I for one am proud to be part of a union that has worked so hard to get better renumeration for us - after all that's why I pay my subscription.

It’s good to see a member being honest about what unions are really about.

The fact that the budget allocates more money to the people working in education than the resources / infrastructre it needs says more about the inadequacies in our government's budgeting in my opinion.

There have been massive increases in education funding but most of it has been taken by teachers in the form of pay increases. If more money was available I am sure that even bigger pay increases would have been looked for.

We had years of prosperity when the government could have pumped money into improving our schools, facilities, resources and numerous other worthy areas. It needn't have come at a massive cost to the taxpayer either if they had stipulated to the many wealthy property developers that schools should be part of their plans when building housing estate after housing estate but no, those fat cats weren't to be burdened with such mundane, pesky issues. Now we're simply reaping what they have sown.

While I agree that developers should cover the cost of infrastructure (which in turn would have to be passed in to the people who buy the houses) you swipe at the minister in a previous post and your reference to “fat cats” (can you define what one it?) while asserting that I (and by extension other non teachers) should not comment on whether teaching salaries are deserved shows a blatant double standard and could be seen as hypocritical and begrudging.

 

[thebop]

you swipe at the minister in a previous post and your reference to “fat cats” (can you define what one it?) while asserting that I (and by extension other non teachers) should not comment on whether teaching salaries are deserved shows a blatant double standard and could be seen as hypocritical and begrudging.

Sorry, my brain is fried, I am not totally understanding your point here. I presume that was a typo and that you want me to define my "fat cat" comment - well I mean multi millionaire developers, or at least the ones who were worth that much in the good times. It was incredibly naive of the government to allow building to continue without such vital infrastructure when these estates were clearly going to be full of families in the not too distant future. I don't know which minister you think I'm alluding to at all.

As for the very last part, I'm not sure how I'm being hypocritical and begrudging. Will be happy to answer if you can clarify please.

 

[Purple]

Sorry, my brain is fried, I am not totally understanding your point here. I presume that was a typo and that you want me to define my "fat cat" comment - well I mean multi millionaire developers, or at least the ones who were worth that much in the good times. It was incredibly naive of the government to allow building to continue without such vital infrastructure when these estates were clearly going to be full of families in the not too distant future. I don't know which minister you think I'm alluding to at all.

As for the very last part, I'm not sure how I'm being hypocritical and begrudging. Will be happy to answer if you can clarify please.

You made a comment about "Batt" and his salary earlier and the term "fat cat" is a derogatory one. Both of these could lead a reader to conclude that the green eyed monster was at work.
I do agree that whoever develops the land should build the infrastructure. This is the case in most of the USA and Europe (I remember being in Texas and seeing acres of streets with empty lots for houses but the school, bus stops, and even a fire station were finished) and there is no reason why it should not happen here. If not then the levy the state charges per unit should be increased but this adds an administrative cost to the state and so is less efficient.