The Magnificent 19

A

Asimov

Guest
Just listening to a muslim being interviewed on Today FM who is invited to debate at Trinity tonight.
This guy just referred to the hijackers of 9-11 as the 'Magnificent 19', and the victims of 9-11 as justly killed.

Boy....I'd love to go to this debate.
But I'd probably get arrested.
 
If the grand master of the Alabama KKK was interviewed on an Islamic TV station he would come out with the same sort of crap from the other extreme so I don't buy it that these sort of jokers are a reflection of the views of most Muslims.
The fundamental difference between Islamic and western thinking is that in the west you are entitled to air your views and oppose others up to but not including violence. In the Muslim world the us to violence to silence those you disagree with of pour scorn on your most sacred beliefs is much more acceptable than it is here.
The killing of that film maker in Holland is a good case in point; lots of Catholics were offended and sickened by the stuff he did about their beliefs but while they may have protested and complained they stayed within the basic laws and beliefs that all western societies have in common; you have the right to you opinion and the right to voice it as long as it does not do harm, or incite others to do harm and if those boundaries are crossed the punishment must be within the law.
 
errrm

Purple have you been down the pub? I can just about make out your point among all that misspelling.

Anyhow,

I don't need a lecture on how fundamentalist muslims think (perhaps another reason for not attending that debate) so please spare me the sermon.

The point is not whether I'm prepared to ignore or put up with this (expletive deleted)'s venom, but rather...why is he being allowed OR invited to parade it in this country?

IMHO he should be under arrest for incitement to violence. This is the kind of crap that drives me to support G W Bush wholeheartedly!

Geddit???
 
Hi Asimov, good post on the "How the hell did Bush get back in" debate about the implications if AQ is not a real international organization and every Muslim youth is a potential foot soldier. Says a lot about how fundamentalist Muslims think, eh?
Purple have you been down the pub?
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chance would be a fine thing.
I can just about make out your point among all that misspelling.
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Your towering intellect has overcome my ill disciplined scribblings....well done you!
IMHO he should be under arrest for incitement to violence.
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If he came out with the same hate filled venom that I have heard him spout on TV I would agree with you.
why is he being allowed OR invited to parade it in this country?
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I don't think he should be invited here and allowed to dress his barbaric ideas in a vail of respectability by speaking to a bunch of snotty nosed students.
I didn't hear of any arrests on the radio on my way into work so I assume you didn't make it last night.
You can send my a personal mail to point out and spelling mistakes above....
 
I heard this program too. However it should be noted that this guy was very much a whack job and the UK Muslim party guy who was on too basically rubbished all of his points, including the eye for an eye crap.
 
I don't think that giving that idiot air time was of any benefit except to Matt Cooper who is desperate to boost listenership, and obviously thinks controversy is a good way to do so. It's the desperate act of a man still living in the shadow of Dunphy IMHO!
 
Hi sunnyday,

On the one hand I agree. I don't think that nutjobs and extremists should be given airtime to voice their views. I think it's a bad idea for them to be preaching their nonsense to studenst too. Some might argue that it's better to let these people have their say so that the rest of us can realise how ridiculous it is...but I'm not totally convinced of that idea in every respect.
Matt Cooper usually has a point to make in his interviews - although he tries to make it subtly enough. I actually like his show (most of the time).
The point of that particular interview (for me anyway) was to rubbish these extremist views by getting on a moderate Muslim who is knowledgable about his religion to show how perverted the extremists really are.
 
purple

Hi purple. Sorry if I was a bit harsh with you but my blood was boiling as I listened to that (expletve deleted) speaking. I took it out on you. Please accept my apology.

Piggy, I remember not long ago in this country there was a ban on Sinn Fein politicians having access to the airwaves. I believe these (expletive deleted)s should be banned too.

As to the comments of the 'moderate muslim' - he was a white westerner (a Brit) who had converted to Islam, and there he was, telling a fundamentalist Arab muslim that he was wrong about his own religion! I really wonder how that goes down with the mainly foreign muslim community of the UK (or indeed Ireland). Who do you think they give the credibility to?

The hardliner was emphasising a point which I've made before here, that there is only ONE true form of Islam and it is the fundamentalists who are being truest to it.

I see clear parrallels in the debate about modernisation of the Catholic Church. The purists who stick to the strictest teachings of Christ seem like nut jobs...but you have to admit, they are simply following the literal truth of the faith as it was preached, not a wimpy modernised version of a la carte catholicism.

Its the same thing in Islam - only Islam is a lot less forgiving toward sinners than Christ is.
 
Re: purple

I see clear parrallels in the debate about modernisation of the Catholic Church. The purists who stick to the strictest teachings of Christ seem like nut jobs...but you have to admit, they are simply following the literal truth of the faith as it was preached, not a wimpy modernised version of a la carte catholicism.
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I agree, that's why we must remember that this is really about protecting liberal secularism from totalitarianism. The fact that OBL's form of totalitarianism is Islamic is irrelevant. If someone was trying to impose Oliver Cromwell's form of Christianity I would be just as opposed to it. The same applies to National socialism or communism.
The hardliner was emphasising a point which I've made before here, that there is only ONE true form of Islam and it is the fundamentalists who are being truest to it.
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If that's the case then the one true form of Christianity went down the toilet about 400 years ago when Copernicus, Galileo, Descartes and Newton etc. were allowed to publish their works without loosing their heads (yes, I know Galileo had to recant his writings and ended his days under house arrest but he started the ball rolling).
Once science escaped from the under the shadow of superstition, er I mean religion, the course was set that would take the western world into the age of enlightenment and reason. I would fight and kill to keep us there.

Its the same thing in Islam - only Islam is a lot less forgiving toward sinners than Christ is.
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I completely disagree with you there. Fundamentalist Christianity has shown itself to be far more bloody and oppressive than Islam has ever been. If I had to live under one it would be Islamic fundamentalism. The thing is that Christian fundamentalism of equivalent extremism to the Islamic form that OBL and his followers espouse hasn't been around since 1692 when the Salem witch trials took place!
 
Re: purple

The purists who stick to the strictest teachings of Christ seem like nut jobs...but you have to admit, they are simply following the literal truth of the faith as it was preached, not a wimpy modernised version of a la carte catholicism.

Actually it's not necessarily that simple as resources such as the following illustrate (underlining above is mine):
<!--EZCODE LIST START--><ul><li>[broken link removed]</li><li>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140144994/103-5761775-5110219 (The Historical Figure of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately - by E. P. Sanders)</li></ul><!--EZCODE LIST END-->
 
Re: purple

Fundamentalist Christianity has shown itself to be far more bloody and oppressive than Islam has ever been. If I had to live under one it would be Islamic fundamentalism. The thing is that Christian fundamentalism of equivalent extremism to the Islamic form that OBL and his followers espouse hasn't been around since 1692 when the Salem witch trials took place!
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Early Christianity had plenty of failings, and it resembled fundamentalist Islam far too closely for most peoples comfort in this more 'enlightened' age.

But Christianity turned a corner in the 17th century with the Reformation.

The old certainties and ideologies gave way to a new set of principals:

– Religious freedom.
– Liberty of conscience.
– Free enterprise.
– Lex Rex (the rule of law).
– Separation of powers.
– Constitutionally limited republics.

Meanwhile Islam still labours under the ideolgies that Christianity and The Secular West threw off 300 years ago.

There has been no Reformation of Islam. It still adheres to the principals and practices laid down by a nomadic Arab in the year 650AD.

Take a look at that list of Reformation principals and tell me honestly which Islamic nation subscribes to them?
Iran?
Saudi Arabia?

If you want to live in a society which still has witch trials, and stonings, and beheadings as scripturally dictated punishment...just move to Saudi Arabia, the spiritual centre of Islam.

The verdict for the female apostate (or WITCH) is the same as for the male.

She must be called on to return to Islam for three days, prior to her death...

Furthermore, the Prophet said, "It is good if she repents.

If she does not, she is to be killed, since by apostasy she should be treated like a woman who has fought against Muslims, being taken captive in a holy war (jihad); thus it is lawful to kill her with the sword.

Moreover, her guilt is far more abominable than women who are taken captive in a holy war,(?...Margaret Hassan...?) since she has become a Muslim."
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Islamic Text on Apostasy

At this very moment a female contributor to the films of Theo Van Gogh (recently murdered in Holland for insulting Islam) is under an Islamists death threat for her apostasy from Islam.

Many of my friends (male and female) have given up their Catholic faith, but I've yet to hear the local preist order the faithful to cut off their heads for their apostasy from Christianity.
In actual fact, I can't find any punishment in the Bible for apostasy, except to risk losing ones hopes of entering the kingdom of Heaven.

The fact that OBL's form of totalitarianism is Islamic is irrelevant.
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Irrelevant? OBLs Totalitarian Ideology is ISLAM. How more relevant can it get?

If someone was trying to impose Oliver Cromwell's form of Christianity I would be just as opposed to it.
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So would I! But who is?
Who in the Christian world is trying to impose Christianity by force?

Both your quotes display a fiendishly clever use of language to put spin to an argument. Naughty naughty!

Once science escaped from the under the shadow of superstition, er I mean religion, the course was set that would take the western world into the age of enlightenment and reason.
I would fight and kill to keep us there.
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Judging by recent developments in Holland, you may well soon have your chance.
Who do you think you'll be fighting? Suicidal Christian fundamentalists?

Clubman, that first link is interesting, but theres too much info there to read in the time I have.
Can you precis the point?

The second link is to a book I haven't read, so again I can't comment on it.
 
Re: My go.

Clubman, that first link is interesting, but theres too much info there to read in the time I have.
Can you precis the point?

The second link is to a book I haven't read, so again I can't comment on it.

I don't think that I could do either of them justice here so I would simply encourage anybody who is interested in the historical aspects of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately and Christianity to try and read them and other related material - including the Bible itself.
 
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