JoeRoberts
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,276
Lord Denning and appalling vista re Birminghan six...
The Lucy Letby Case
- Thread starter Howth Head
- Start date
JoeRoberts
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,276
The Karen Read retrial recently finished in the USA is similar for anyone interested in alleged cover ups by those in charge.
This is what happens when people are given deference and the assumption of higher ethical standards based only on the job they choose to do. We believed priests because they were priests and in this case it seems that doctors were believed because they were doctors.
It is utter nonsense to assume that a group of people are more honest or ethical or have higher moral standards based only on their job or qualification or the field in which they choose to work.
It is utter nonsense to assume that a group of people are more honest or ethical or have higher moral standards based only on their job or qualification or the field in which they choose to work.
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
Good piece by the Irish Times London correspondent this evening....
www.irishtimes.com
Letby’s case is now being examined by the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC). Political pressure is growing on it to speed up its examination and, if it finds it warranted, to refer the case back to the courts as a potential miscarriage of justice.
On Tuesday, it emerged that Cheshire police had arrested three managers who worked at the hospital between 2015 and 2016, as part of an investigation into possible gross negligence manslaughter. Police said it did not “impact on the convictions of Letby”. That is a truism. Only a court decision can have an impact on her conviction.
All the while, a public inquiry chaired by appeal court judge Kathryn Thirlwall trundles along. It was established with its starting point the assumption that Letby is a remorseless mass murderer. Yet in the background swirls a growing campaign that maintains her conviction is unsafe. The inquiry’s report has been delayed until next year.
Lucy Letby case roils Britain’s legal and medical establishments
Cheshire police arrest three senior staff from Countess of Chester hospital, where Letby worked before her conviction for murder of babies
Letby’s case is now being examined by the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC). Political pressure is growing on it to speed up its examination and, if it finds it warranted, to refer the case back to the courts as a potential miscarriage of justice.
On Tuesday, it emerged that Cheshire police had arrested three managers who worked at the hospital between 2015 and 2016, as part of an investigation into possible gross negligence manslaughter. Police said it did not “impact on the convictions of Letby”. That is a truism. Only a court decision can have an impact on her conviction.
All the while, a public inquiry chaired by appeal court judge Kathryn Thirlwall trundles along. It was established with its starting point the assumption that Letby is a remorseless mass murderer. Yet in the background swirls a growing campaign that maintains her conviction is unsafe. The inquiry’s report has been delayed until next year.
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
Yesterday's Guardian....
Can't imagine the Criminal Cases Review Board refusing a thorough re-examination of the case at this stage. With so many doubts from such a wide range of specialists, the headlines would go into overdrive - shining an even greater spotlight on the saga.
www.theguardian.com
Can't imagine the Criminal Cases Review Board refusing a thorough re-examination of the case at this stage. With so many doubts from such a wide range of specialists, the headlines would go into overdrive - shining an even greater spotlight on the saga.
Former senior coroner’s officer says Lucy Letby has suffered miscarriage of justice
Stephanie Davies says crucial details about one of the babies could have made difference to police investigation
www.theguardian.com
Last edited:
I followed the trial a little bit. But I think the main thing we should all realise is that none of us were on the jury and therefore do not know all the evidence presented in the case. From this thread there seems to be new evidence unearthed all the time and the CCRC should assess that to see if they feel the conviction is unsafe and should be reviewed.
As far as I can recall the main problem was that the death rate in the NICU was too high and babies that were stable were dying and the only common denominator was Lucy. Her obsession with the deaths, the families and her weirdness towards being present at the deaths pointed to some obsessive type motive which she seemed unable to explain.
My concern with the narrative since her conviction is that it is by nature biased and is not being tested in a court of law like the original convictions. So I am loath to take any commentary as “fact” or unbiased.
There have been unsafe convictions in the past and there will be in the future, but there seems to be a new trend of “citizen investigation via social media” for some cases and not others, such as Erin Patterson in Australia, Karen Reed in Boston and even Aisling Murphy and Tina Satchwell trials in Ireland. Everyone seems to have an opinion on the conviction and whether their trials had the right outcome or not but we should forget that we did not sit on the jury.
As far as I can recall the main problem was that the death rate in the NICU was too high and babies that were stable were dying and the only common denominator was Lucy. Her obsession with the deaths, the families and her weirdness towards being present at the deaths pointed to some obsessive type motive which she seemed unable to explain.
My concern with the narrative since her conviction is that it is by nature biased and is not being tested in a court of law like the original convictions. So I am loath to take any commentary as “fact” or unbiased.
There have been unsafe convictions in the past and there will be in the future, but there seems to be a new trend of “citizen investigation via social media” for some cases and not others, such as Erin Patterson in Australia, Karen Reed in Boston and even Aisling Murphy and Tina Satchwell trials in Ireland. Everyone seems to have an opinion on the conviction and whether their trials had the right outcome or not but we should forget that we did not sit on the jury.
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
For those interested there's a new documentary on the Lucy Letby case coming up on ITV1 this Sunday. (Apparently, it was made by the same team that exposed the UK Post Office scandal.)
*Edit: can't get the link to the preview to work properly
This programme explores the views of a team of international scientists who say the prosecution case simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. So is Letby guilty beyond reasonable doubt? Or could she be a victim of one of Britain’s worst miscarriages of justice?
Oh and there's a BBC Panorama special on August 11th....
www.bbc.co.uk
*Edit: can't get the link to the preview to work properly
This programme explores the views of a team of international scientists who say the prosecution case simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. So is Letby guilty beyond reasonable doubt? Or could she be a victim of one of Britain’s worst miscarriages of justice?
Oh and there's a BBC Panorama special on August 11th....
BBC One - Panorama, Lucy Letby: Who to Believe?
Judith Moritz investigates the arguments for and against Lucy Letby's conviction.
Last edited:
ITV1/UTV Sunday 3rd August 22:20 - 23:30
Lucy Letby: Beyond Reasonable Doubt?
Anouk Curry reports on the conviction of the former nurse, featuring the views of a team of international scientists who say the prosecution case does not stand up to scrutiny
There best I could do.
Lucy Letby: Beyond Reasonable Doubt?
Anouk Curry reports on the conviction of the former nurse, featuring the views of a team of international scientists who say the prosecution case does not stand up to scrutiny
There best I could do.
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
Will try not to post everything in the media that follows the documentary....just a couple that have appeared tonight.
www.theguardian.com
www.lbc.co.uk
Lucy Letby: Beyond Reasonable Doubt? review – one of the most meticulous documentaries in years
The science and statistics around Letby’s case are brilliantly unpacked by this considered programme. By its end, you are filled with questions
www.theguardian.com
David Davis 'convinced' child-killer Lucy Letby is innocent - as documentary reveals explosive new evidence | LBC
David Davis has told LBC he is "convinced" child-killer Lucy Letby is innocent - as he admits he continues to question the evidence used to convict her.
www.lbc.co.uk
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
A reminder for anyone interested that this is on BBC1 tonight at 8pm. (It's already available on the BBC player for anyone resident in the UK.)
www.bbc.co.uk
(That's two TV Documentaries in the space of eight days - expect much more media coverage this week.)
The Telegraph have this today in relation to last week's ITV documtary...
www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/a3fb472fef8abd6f
During the trial I was struck by the fact that most of the evidence was circumstantial or down to medical interpretation. I waited to hear what Letby’s defence team would come back with after many months of hearing the prosecution side. My reaction was similar to that of the Guardian’s north of England editor who told our ITV documentary programme how astonishing it was that the defence decided not to call any expert witnesses.
I also learnt that several months into the trial something extraordinary had happened. Another judge, Mr Justice Jackson, sent an email to the judge in the Letby case, alerting him to a decision he had made in a different case in which he was extremely critical of a report Dr Evans had written as an expert witness.
Panorama - Lucy Letby: Who to Believe?
Lucy Letby was found guilty of unimaginable crimes. But some experts say there was no evidence to support her conviction. Judith Moritz investigates.
www.bbc.co.uk
(That's two TV Documentaries in the space of eight days - expect much more media coverage this week.)
The Telegraph have this today in relation to last week's ITV documtary...
www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/a3fb472fef8abd6f
During the trial I was struck by the fact that most of the evidence was circumstantial or down to medical interpretation. I waited to hear what Letby’s defence team would come back with after many months of hearing the prosecution side. My reaction was similar to that of the Guardian’s north of England editor who told our ITV documentary programme how astonishing it was that the defence decided not to call any expert witnesses.
I also learnt that several months into the trial something extraordinary had happened. Another judge, Mr Justice Jackson, sent an email to the judge in the Letby case, alerting him to a decision he had made in a different case in which he was extremely critical of a report Dr Evans had written as an expert witness.
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
Lucy Letby could be forgiven for thinking the entire establishment - NHS, Cheshire Police, Judiciary - and now the BBC have it in for her.
The official correction from the BBC:
In the programme we also stated that the review found that babies’ breathing tubes came out 40 times more often than normal when Lucy Letby was on shift. We have now removed that line from the programme and some associated commentary .
We have now been told the rate during that period is substantially lower than 40 percent. We have re-edited the film to reflect all of this and to make our reporting of the hospital review clearer.
BBC admits it broadcast inaccurate Lucy Letby figures
Former nurse’s barrister vows to complain to Ofcom over ‘misleading’ statistics relating to the dislodgement of baby breathing tubesThe official correction from the BBC:
Corrections and Clarifications
The BBC's responses to editorial, technical and corporate issues.
www.bbc.co.uk
In the programme we also stated that the review found that babies’ breathing tubes came out 40 times more often than normal when Lucy Letby was on shift. We have now removed that line from the programme and some associated commentary .
We have now been told the rate during that period is substantially lower than 40 percent. We have re-edited the film to reflect all of this and to make our reporting of the hospital review clearer.
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
The first of a two-part documentary on the Letby case going out from tomorrow on Channel 4. Apparently it's fairly neutral on the question of guilt or innocence - but veers towards the latter.
Preview here:
www.theguardian.com
Preview here:
Conviction: The Case of Lucy Letby review – documentary probes Britain’s most notorious baby killer
Channel 4’s film follows the fight to overturn Letby’s conviction, questioning expert testimony and exposing deep divisions over whether she is guilty or the victim of a miscarriage of justice
www.theguardian.com
Last edited:
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
Yet another senior police figure questioning the case. (The Criminal Cases Review Board are certainly taking their time in coming up with a decision on a re-trial or otherwise.)
But Dr Steve Watts, Hampshire’s former assistant chief constable, who drew up the national policy for investigating deaths in healthcare settings, said he was concerned that the force had not sought alternative explanations.
“I followed the Letby Trial on a daily basis and I remember thinking, ‘When are they going to get to the evidence?’ and it never arrived. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever,” said Dr Watts, a former vice-chairman of the national homicide working group of the Association of Chief Police Officers.
“The material before the court, in my view, was obtained by an investigation that was unconsciously skewed by confirmation bias.
“At a very early stage, it appears that Cheshire Police decided these children had been injured deliberately, and that Lucy Letby had done it. I find it difficult to call it an investigation; it seemed that it was more an information-gathering exercise to prove that Lucy Letby did it.”
But Dr Steve Watts, Hampshire’s former assistant chief constable, who drew up the national policy for investigating deaths in healthcare settings, said he was concerned that the force had not sought alternative explanations.
“I followed the Letby Trial on a daily basis and I remember thinking, ‘When are they going to get to the evidence?’ and it never arrived. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever,” said Dr Watts, a former vice-chairman of the national homicide working group of the Association of Chief Police Officers.
“The material before the court, in my view, was obtained by an investigation that was unconsciously skewed by confirmation bias.
“At a very early stage, it appears that Cheshire Police decided these children had been injured deliberately, and that Lucy Letby had done it. I find it difficult to call it an investigation; it seemed that it was more an information-gathering exercise to prove that Lucy Letby did it.”
Last edited:
In medical school we studied the tragic Sally Clark case which was a cruel miscarriage of justice. She was a solicitor and a mother of 2 children who both died as babies. She was convicted of murder because of bad statistical analysis in "expert" medical evidence - her children had in fact died of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) or natural causes.
Her conviction was eventually overturned, but she had spent years in prison where she was badly treated ("child killer", solicitor). She developed severe psychiatric problems as a result of the trauma and died of alcohol poisoning a few years after her release.
Some of the flaws in the Letby case echo the Clark case. Is it more likely that a parent would kill 2 babies or that 2 babies would die of SIDS? Is it more likely that there is a serial killer nurse at large or that a busy unit treating sick children will have clusters of deaths?
Her conviction was eventually overturned, but she had spent years in prison where she was badly treated ("child killer", solicitor). She developed severe psychiatric problems as a result of the trauma and died of alcohol poisoning a few years after her release.
Some of the flaws in the Letby case echo the Clark case. Is it more likely that a parent would kill 2 babies or that 2 babies would die of SIDS? Is it more likely that there is a serial killer nurse at large or that a busy unit treating sick children will have clusters of deaths?
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
This case has been back in the news again in recent days.
Interestingly, the Cheshire police who were responsible for the original investigation are fully convinced of her guilt here and that the Crown Prosecution Service are wrong in their decision. Looks to me like they pursued these additional cases as a kind of pre-emptive strike over any fallout from the widespread doubt cast on her conviction. They certainly have the most to lose if/when she's released or faces a re-trial. (Scolding those who might feel like "celebrating" the decision is bizarre.)
www.bbc.com
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said it had reviewed evidence into further allegations of murder and attempted murder against nine children at the Countess of Chester Hospital and Liverpool Women's Hospital but "the evidential test was not met in any of those cases". Cheshire Police, which submitted the evidence, said the decision was "not the outcome that we had anticipated".
www.rte.ie
In a rare step, Cheshire Constabulary spoke out publicly against the decision, which it said was "not the outcome that we had anticipated throughout our investigation. The CPS did not agree and despite our representations we must respect the decision that has been made.
"There will be some who will feel that this is news worth celebrating. We do not share this view..."
Meanwhile the Thirlwell enquiry into the original cases has been further delayed - no doubt in anticipation of a decision on the ongoing appeal over the cases.
www.bbc.com
Interestingly, the Cheshire police who were responsible for the original investigation are fully convinced of her guilt here and that the Crown Prosecution Service are wrong in their decision. Looks to me like they pursued these additional cases as a kind of pre-emptive strike over any fallout from the widespread doubt cast on her conviction. They certainly have the most to lose if/when she's released or faces a re-trial. (Scolding those who might feel like "celebrating" the decision is bizarre.)
Lucy Letby will not face further criminal charges
Former nurse Lucy Letby is serving 15 whole-life terms for murder and attempted murder.
www.bbc.com
UK police criticise CPS decision on Lucy Letby charges
UK police have hit out at the decision not to bring further charges against child killer nurse Lucy Letby.
In a rare step, Cheshire Constabulary spoke out publicly against the decision, which it said was "not the outcome that we had anticipated throughout our investigation. The CPS did not agree and despite our representations we must respect the decision that has been made.
"There will be some who will feel that this is news worth celebrating. We do not share this view..."
Meanwhile the Thirlwell enquiry into the original cases has been further delayed - no doubt in anticipation of a decision on the ongoing appeal over the cases.
Lucy Letby public inquiry report further delayed
A report examining neonatal nurse Lucy Letby's crimes is now expected to be published "after Easter".
www.bbc.com
Last edited:
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
In fairness, he was one of the first to question the conviction.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Who do Cheshire Police think they are? On Monday, they complained publicly that the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) had decided not to proceed with several new cases against Lucy Letby. What business is this of the police?
If experienced prosecutors think a jury won’t convict on their evidence, then that is just tough. Worse, the CPS statement contains the first faint whisper from the establishment that maybe a jury – if it had known what we have since gathered from expert inquiries – would not have convicted her in either of her two original trials.
Remember, this is the force that held two secret press conferences (they still won’t release transcripts) before and during the trial, commissioned a self-praising video about the case and grandiosely named its investigation ‘Operation Hummingbird’ – as if it had been preparing an invasion of Lancashire next door. ‘Operation’, indeed. This sort of thing is a symptom of the way police have been getting way above themselves in recent years, since they gave up walking.
PETER HITCHENS: Case against Lucy Letby is like a soggy sandcastle
On Monday, Cheshire police complained publicly the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) had decided not to proceed with several new cases against Lucy Letby. What business is this of police?
Who do Cheshire Police think they are? On Monday, they complained publicly that the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) had decided not to proceed with several new cases against Lucy Letby. What business is this of the police?
If experienced prosecutors think a jury won’t convict on their evidence, then that is just tough. Worse, the CPS statement contains the first faint whisper from the establishment that maybe a jury – if it had known what we have since gathered from expert inquiries – would not have convicted her in either of her two original trials.
Remember, this is the force that held two secret press conferences (they still won’t release transcripts) before and during the trial, commissioned a self-praising video about the case and grandiosely named its investigation ‘Operation Hummingbird’ – as if it had been preparing an invasion of Lancashire next door. ‘Operation’, indeed. This sort of thing is a symptom of the way police have been getting way above themselves in recent years, since they gave up walking.
Howth Head
Registered User
- Messages
- 108
Have avoided posting much about Lucy Letby (i) because there's so much media coverage of the case in the UK recent days and (ii) there's surprisingly little interest here in Ireland - possibly because it might shine a light and focus minds on our own issues with healthcare..
Anyway, there's a Netflix documentary due to be released soon which is already causing controversy - as the trailer includes footage from Cheshire Police bodycams of her being arrested in her bedroom, barely dressed, looking startled and confused (as I usually am early in the morning.) Not quite sure how Netflix got hold of the footage which seems prurient and an invasion of privacy. My guess is, the police did a deal some time ago, when they thought this was a done deal, slam dunk etc - long before major doubts began to arise.
She'll be out of prison this year. Certain of it...
www.dailymail.co.uk
www.telegraph.co.uk
www.thetimes.com
Anyway, there's a Netflix documentary due to be released soon which is already causing controversy - as the trailer includes footage from Cheshire Police bodycams of her being arrested in her bedroom, barely dressed, looking startled and confused (as I usually am early in the morning.) Not quite sure how Netflix got hold of the footage which seems prurient and an invasion of privacy. My guess is, the police did a deal some time ago, when they thought this was a done deal, slam dunk etc - long before major doubts began to arise.
She'll be out of prison this year. Certain of it...
Lucy Letby's parents blast Netflix doc as 'invasion of privacy'
Susan and John Letby also said that the chief investigating officer at the force which investigated the deaths of babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital 'seemed to have a deep hatred' of them.
Letby victim had deadly bug in lung at time of death
Bacteria found in Baby I ‘not surprising’ as nurse complained about sewage overflow at hospital
www.telegraph.co.uk
Esther Rantzen: Why Lucy Letby’s convictions need to be re-examined
The questioning of evidence by a panel of experts, the deaths of children in a Glasgow hospital and a police herd instinct on decisions raise serious doubts
www.thetimes.com
Inexpensive
Frequent Poster
- Messages
- 98
Based on high profile cases from the past that would be remarkably rapid.
Anyone remember Making a murderer, Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey are both still locked up.
Dassey in particular came across as a completely harmless and low IQ adolescent who was stitched up
over 20 years after their arrest.