The Irish Times doesn't know what Neoliberalism means

[Purple]

In yet another ridiculously partisan article from Una Mullally in today's Irish Times she says that "Burned by Fine Gael’s radical neoliberalism, the electorate is shifting left". Now FG are certainly more centralist that the populist SF but describing them as Neoliberal, let alone radically neoliberal, is just plain incorrect.
You can not like them, you can disagree with their policies but they are no more neoliberal than Labour are Communist.

Neoliberalism is a political approach that favours free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending (Google definition, but accurate) so radical neoliberalism is a radical version of that. How can someone claim to be a journalist and write that sort of rubbish and how can someone claim to be an editor and allow it to be published? Is the IT just another tabloid in disguise looking for clickbait?

 

[odyssey06]

Where is this radical neoliberalist party that I might vote for them?

Una Mullally, up to her her assaults on the English language again... when you have to use language to lie like that, it's usually the case they're talking nonsense.

 

[Baby boomer]

Line them up on a left/right spectrum and by any comparative measure, FG would be on the extreme LEFT of mainstream European Conservative / Christian Democratic parties. They would be downright socialist if not Communist when viewed from the US Republican party. Even the PDs would have been no more than vaguely centre right when doing international comparisons.

The only way you could see FG as radical neoliberals is from a perspective so far to the left of Castro's Cuba that every other party starts to look like far right.

 

[RetirementPlan]

Folks might be getting confused between the beliefs and values of FG, and the policies that FG implement when in coalition governments with other parties to their left. I don't think FG are too far off neoliberal in their own values.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

It's the party for those who get up in the morning. Can't get much more neoliberal than that.

 

[Purple]

I don't think FG are too far off neoliberal in their own values.

How so?
They have consistently increased welfare payments, increased public spending on health and education, increased marginal income tax rates, voted for the depositor bail out after the Banks collapsed, increased spending on social housing... what policies do they have that are neoliberal?

There is no Party in Ireland that is anything close to neoliberal, thankfully. There is no Party that could even be described as right or centre, except by those on the far left or those that are delusional.

 

[Delboy]

FG were historically known for being tough on crime and careful with the public purse!
Take a look at the NCH hospital which will probably end up being the most expensive in the world. Or read the Court's pages in the local and national newspapers to see people on 50+ convictions getting suspended sentences for their latest crime and probation reports for all.

They're FF with posh accents

 

[Baby boomer]

Very good article from the Guardian here by the always excellent Nick Cohen (whether you agree with him or not) that puts poor Una Mullally's effort to shame by comparison.

So which of these politicians is a neoliberal? Not one of them | Nick Cohen

A new study on the movement suggests that its abiding legacy might be as an insult

www.theguardian.com

 

[RetirementPlan]

How so?
They have consistently increased welfare payments, increased public spending on health and education, increased marginal income tax rates, voted for the depositor bail out after the Banks collapsed, increased spending on social housing... what policies do they have that are neoliberal?

There is no Party in Ireland that is anything close to neoliberal, thankfully. There is no Party that could even be described as right or centre, except by those on the far left or those that are delusional.

Again, it looks like you're judging FG more by their achievements in coalition governments, with all the inherent compromises that go with that, rather than on their actual values. I can't particularly think of examples now, but their masks tend to slip from time to time, where they expose themselves as fairly naked Tories. I'll see if I can remember to post back here next time I notice.

 

[cremeegg]

Again, it looks like you're judging FG more by their achievements in coalition governments,

How could you be so misguided.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Very good article from the Guardian here by the always excellent Nick Cohen (whether you agree with him or not) that puts poor Una Mullally's effort to shame by comparison.

So which of these politicians is a neoliberal? Not one of them | Nick Cohen

A new study on the movement suggests that its abiding legacy might be as an insult

www.theguardian.com

Except:

If you call opponents “fascist” or a “fundamentalist”, however, at least your audience knows you are condemning them. A “neoliberal” though? Most people won’t know what you are talking about, but will guess that it doesn’t sound such a bad thing to be.

I think the likes of Una Mullally, Fintan O'Toole, Gene Kerrigan et al mean a condemnation on a par with Fascist. and leaves us in no doubt that they mean a very bad thing.

 

[Baby boomer]

Except:

I think the likes of Una Mullally, Fintan O'Toole, Gene Kerrigan et al mean a condemnation on a par with Fascist. and leaves us in no doubt that they mean a very bad thing.

Cohen's very next sentence captures the phenomenon perfectly!

The exceptions will be the minority immersed in leftwing thought. They alone are primed to shudder at the sound of the word.

Mullally, O'Toole and Kerrigan are that minority.

 

[time to plan]

How so?
They have consistently increased welfare payments, increased public spending on health and education, increased marginal income tax rates, voted for the depositor bail out after the Banks collapsed, increased spending on social housing... what policies do they have that are neoliberal?

There is no Party in Ireland that is anything close to neoliberal, thankfully. There is no Party that could even be described as right or centre, except by those on the far left or those that are delusional.

You would have to be on the far right or delusional to think that there is no party in Ireland that could be described as centre. Fine Gael describes itself as Progressive Centre. Wikipedia describes it as Centre-Right and gives four external references for this classification.

 

[Purple]

You would have to be on the far right or delusional to think that there is no party in Ireland that could be described as centre. Fine Gael describes itself as Progressive Centre. Wikipedia describes it as Centre-Right and gives four external references for this classification.

Typo in my part, I meant to say right of centre.
Given our welfare and income tax system it is clear that the Parties which have been in government for the last 20 years are centre left.
FG might describe itself as centre right, and they but up their own Wiki page, but they are social liberals who support a generous welfare system and the most progressive income tax system in the EU. On what basis could they be described as centre right?

 

[time to plan]

Typo in my part, I meant to say right of centre.
Given our welfare and income tax system it is clear that the Parties which have been in government for the last 20 years are centre left.
FG might describe itself as centre right, and they but up their own Wiki page, but they are social liberals who support a generous welfare system and the most progressive income tax system in the EU. On what basis could they be described as centre right?

Socially liberal is entirely consistent with centre-right.

Ireland is a high personal taxation rate country but it's not particularly progressive in my opinion (edit - I see my opinion is in disagreement with respected studies - fair enough). The top rates kick in and low salary levels. The high personal tax rates are in opposition to low company taxes - 12.5% CT rate along with a very big-business friendly attitude. Which is all rather centre-right.

Just to add an international perspective, membership of the European People's party also indicates centre right.

 

[RetirementPlan]

Again, I think people are getting confused between the party's own values, and the party's approach when in coalition governments that inevitably have some degree of compromise involved.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Again, I think people are getting confused between the party's own values, and the party's approach when in coalition governments that inevitably have some degree of compromise involved.

I think that is right.
The term centre-right is in fact a location* analogy. First I want to split apart social location from economic location and concentrate only on the latter.
We need to have a benchmark location which we call zero just like degrees of longtitude are relative to London. Ideally our choice of centre for calibration purposes should be roughly in the middle of the universe under observation which let us confine to the Western style democracies. As it happens I think coincidentally that London again provides the best benchmark, the average UK administration is dead centre. We need 2 other calibration points and we also need to decide on direction - let us say Right is in the positive direction and vice versa. I will put the average French admin on -10 and the average US admin on +10.
So I would put Ireland on average at about -12. But if FG were in majority power I would think it would go to about +5.

* Historically we have chosen location as the physical analogy for political/social/economic viewpoints, originating in the French Revolution. We could have chosen temperature (hot and cold), touch (soft and hard), height (low and high) or any such physical attribute. Sometimes mixed analogies are used such as the "hard left".

 

[time to plan]

There's always a matter of judgment here. One person's centre is another person's centre-right. Call it how you see it. But the thing that strikes me most about the conversation is not that someone could disagree that FG is centre right, but that someone could state:

There is no Party that could even be described as right of centre, except by those on the far left or those that are delusional.

It reminds me of those US Republicans that call Democrats Marxists. The obvious irony is that to make the above statement you would have to be on the far right or delusional.

 

[Purple]

It reminds me of those US Republicans that call Democrats Marxists. The obvious irony is that to make the above statement you would have to be on the far right or delusional.

Given out tax system and our very generous welfare system , particularly for those on long term welfare, which is supported by both FF and FG I'd like to know what you think makes either Party right of centre by European or American standards.
I'm generally in favour of our taxation and welfare system so I'm not coming from a place of criticism. I'm just wondering what measure you'd use to place either FF or FG on the right economically.
FG policies include free GP access, increasing funding for Asylum seekers and replacing the Direct Provision structure, increasing funding for education, increasing funding for health and borrowing to sustain current expenditure. These are all policies of the socialist/populist left. They have removed more people from the tax net and increased welfare payments. I don't agree with some of those policies but I certainly can't see anything right-wing in there.

 

[Purple]

I think that is right.
The term centre-right is in fact a location* analogy. First I want to split apart social location from economic location and concentrate only on the latter.
We need to have a benchmark location which we call zero just like degrees of longtitude are relative to London. Ideally our choice of centre for calibration purposes should be roughly in the middle of the universe under observation which let us confine to the Western style democracies. As it happens I think coincidentally that London again provides the best benchmark, the average UK administration is dead centre. We need 2 other calibration points and we also need to decide on direction - let us say Right is in the positive direction and vice versa. I will put the average French admin on -10 and the average US admin on +10.
So I would put Ireland on average at about -12. But if FG were in majority power I would think it would go to about +5.

* Historically we have chosen location as the physical analogy for political/social/economic viewpoints, originating in the French Revolution. We could have chosen temperature (hot and cold), touch (soft and hard), height (low and high) or any such physical attribute. Sometimes mixed analogies are used such as the "hard left".

The French have a less progressive income tax system and a less generous welfare system. If we are talking economically our governments are significantly to the left of theirs.
It's fair to say that those of a right of centre view would vote for FG but only because they are the least left wing Party in the country.