The Cloyne Report & the Vatican.

Sunny said:
To be fair to Kenny and Gilmore, they are taking a much tougher line with the Vatican than I expected. Usually politicians will just avoid strong language but listening to the two of them yesterday, there is little doubt as to how annoyed the government is. I agree it is time to cut all diplomatic ties with the Vatican. They have themselves to be as morally corrupt as some of the so called rogue states.
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Agreed. The language out of gov't is forthright & robust, and it should be followed up by fairly serious action. I'm not Unionist, but strangely find myself agreeing with their age-old complaint of Rome-rule.

The shock to Irish society by this awful evil is really unprecedented. Who would ever have thought we'd see the day that a senior politician like Charlie Flanagan would call for the expulsion of the Nuncio?

The impact of abuse is horrendous. Reading the statements of the alleged victims in the Cloyne report is heart-breaking. It has destroyed and warped their lives. We also know from other reports that suicide wasn't uncommon. In the rush to protect the church from "scandal" some priests and bishops have left these people out to dry and in so-doing, abused them again.

Imo the church's warped attitude to human sexuality is a huge part of the problem. It's no wonder that this has become it's achilles heel. There has been a misinformed view that homosexuality is directly linked to abuse, but this is wrong. Firstly not all the abused are boys, and homosexuality & child abuse are very different. Finding children attractive is a disorder of human sexuality. But surely this isn't a surprise in the church given it's horror at almost any sexual expression. What isn't acknowledged and accepted by the church is driven into the dark, and this is where it becomes the warped thing that we see in child sexual abuse, at least in my view.
 
Sunny said:
To be fair to Kenny and Gilmore, they are taking a much tougher line with the Vatican than I expected.
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Yeah, Charlie Flanagan TD has called for the explusion of the papal nuncio and according to the paper this morning, the pope's visit to Ireland next year is in doubt. Changing times.
 
Shawady said:
Yeah, Charlie Flanagan TD has called for the explusion of the papal nuncio and according to the paper this morning, the pope's visit to Ireland next year is in doubt. Changing times.
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Yes, he must have been reading my posts :D
 
Shawady said:
Yeah, Charlie Flanagan TD has called for the explusion of the papal nuncio and according to the paper this morning, the pope's visit to Ireland next year is in doubt. Changing times.
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Oliver J must be spinning at a fast rate.
 
I was chatting to the OH about this sick situation recently.

I do appreciate that the CC has done some good by the way, but I told her that if I had the balls I would not get my children baptised into the CC. I could live with that.

I would much prefer them to be raised as good people rather than be attached to this corrupt and damaged organisation. But the problem was highlighted by her response, "but we couldn't get them into local schools if you did".

Would that be true? Unfortunately there are still all powerful in this country, but legally could my children be barred from the local school? Could it be challenged if they did?
 
RMCF said:
Unfortunately there are still all powerful in this country,
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What's the offical status of the CC in the country.
Are they mentioned in the constitution as the offical religion or anything like that?
 
Shawady said:
Are they mentioned in the constitution as the offical religion or anything like that?
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They used to have a "privaleged position" or some such, but it has been long since removed (possibly due to EEC entry - but I could be way off).

See below my comments re separation of church & state re education and health.
 
Following on from the “we need a reformation” comment above does anyone know who holds legal ownership of the Catholic Church’s property in Ireland? I know that the religious orders own their own land etc but is diocesan land owned by a legal entity called the Dioceses of “X” or is it owned by the individual Bishop (hardly practical) or is it owned by the Vatican.

If it is owned by the Vatican then the questions are what’s the international law around seizing the assets of a foreign state, is it covered by international law and is the Vatican a full member of the UN?
 
I thought I read before that the Vatican was not a member of the UN.
When you think about it, what is the Vatican?
It's an independent state and a religous state together?
The head of state (pope) is elected by members of the church?
I wonder what the property and art in the vatican would be worth.
 
I haven't gone to Mass for years for reasons of laziness.

From now on, I'll not go on for reasons of principle.

I feel it's the least I can do.:)
 
A big problem I have with the Catholic Church regards the lack of action from the "good" priests when all of this abuse became public knowledge. If they had any conviction they would have formed a group and marched to Rome demanding that all the bishops be removed and radical reform be brought it. But instead they kept their heads down and continued to tell us how to live our lives from the pulpit.
I still go to church (though not as often), but I make it my business to not put anything in the collection box. If everyone did this for a few weeks it would be the biggest message to get back to Rome.
 
RMCF said:
I was chatting to the OH about this sick situation recently.

I do appreciate that the CC has done some good by the way, but I told her that if I had the balls I would not get my children baptised into the CC. I could live with that.

I would much prefer them to be raised as good people rather than be attached to this corrupt and damaged organisation. But the problem was highlighted by her response, "but we couldn't get them into local schools if you did".

Would that be true? Unfortunately there are still all powerful in this country, but legally could my children be barred from the local school? Could it be challenged if they did?
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Your children could certainly be deprioritised. Parish schools will normally give priority to children of the religion in quesition. If the school is undersubscribed, there is no issue. If the school is oversubscribed, you'll be at the back of the list.

Outrageous for a state-funded service, but there you go.
 
Complainer said:
Your children could certainly be deprioritised. Parish schools will normally give priority to children of the religion in quesition. If the school is undersubscribed, there is no issue. If the school is oversubscribed, you'll be at the back of the list.

Outrageous for a state-funded service, but there you go.
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big +1 to that.
 
Complainer said:
Your children could certainly be deprioritised. Parish schools will normally give priority to children of the religion in quesition. If the school is undersubscribed, there is no issue. If the school is oversubscribed, you'll be at the back of the list.

Outrageous for a state-funded service, but there you go.
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Would their decision stand up to a legal challenge, do you think?
 
To the Roman catholics amongst you....

-why don't you join the Reformation now and become a Protestant like me ? Although no soup is provided there's always a nice social atmosphere after every service -tea and coffee.
No more expensive first communion crap, no prohibition of contraception, no more idol worshipping and rosary fiddling or whatever you guys do in church, no visions or miracles, No more Papal infallibility, and no more having to believe that at holy Communion you are literally eating the flesh of Christ -and above all no dodgy priests. Ours get married for goodness sake !

If you are still into lots of ceremony and fancy dressed priests - join the C of I . You may be put off by the sight of women clergy but much of ceremony is similar to yours and the priests wear pretty coloured outfits.

If you don't want the fancy paraphanelia of RC and even C of I -then become a Methodist .Much more basic - and none of the hierachy that C of I, like R.C., has. Just simple ministers.

Belief in God is somewhat optional for C of I attendees. i've been an athiest all my life but always found Cof I a nice place to socialise. I regard myself as a Protestant athiest with no qualms until such time as the Humanists have lots of social centres and singing. Nice sing-songs as well.

Methodists a bit more dour- push the God thing a bit more and dont seem to have as many hymns during the services.

Even more strict and full of the God are Baptists and Presbyterians -but if you feel like a weekly equivalent of Croac Patrick then they'll do you fine. Much more talk about sin and redemption. (Don't bother with Congregationalists -too few churches to bother about).

There such a wide choice of Proddy churches -including tiny ones like Quakers (wonderful sect -full of really nice goody-goody people) that i wonder why anyone still calls themselves Roman catholic.

..and we haven't got on to the other Christian denominations - Greek Orthodox for example. Nice little church at Arbor Hill. lovely liturgy that goes on for ever but no audience particpation. And no decent seats.

P.S. Let's not forget Sikhs, Hindus, Moslems,Buddists and Jews.

So, WHY, if you still believe in God -or not - do any of you call yoursleves Roman catholics.?
There a whole wide world out there of alternative mumbo-jumbo and from what I know in my years of studying religion there's far less child buggery amongst the clergy of those religions than there is in the Holy Roman Catholic Faith.
 
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