TD Pay Rises

[Sunny]

I see that from today the basic salary of all TD's is now over the EUR 100,000 mark not including any extras due to the extra 2.5% to be paid under the last National Pay Agreement. Now without starting the whole 'are they paid too much' debate, my problem is the amount of times they seem to get awards. They seem to benefit from every agreement from National Pay Agreements to benchmarking to pay review bodies. Since 1997, they have recieved 30% special pay rises on top of normal partnership pay rises. This has meant that TD's salary have gone up over 110% in ten years. The point is these guys have it made whatever the consequences of the pay talks. Is there anyway these guys won't enjoy above inflation pay rises every single year?

 

[Green]

I agree. In one of the recent pay reports, the salry of TD's was linked with the scale of Principal Officer (higher) in the civil service so if PO's get an increase so do they. Today sees the last increase of 2.5 % under the last pay deal so TD's get that amount. The reality is that they get all the benefits without any pain, those who got benchmarking payments did so in exchange of new work practises, changes, etc TD's did nothing for their increase unless there has been an increase of x% in the number of funerals they go to!

 

[micmclo]

Isn't their pay linked to senior civil servants? Like Secretarys or a Principal officer?

I do remember when they got a €38,000 raise which was put off, that other sectors got raises too. Judges for example and judges definitly deserve to be well paid.

Maybe hitting out at a TD's salary is an easy option where there other people working for the state that are far more overpaid for what they do.

A civil servants job can finish at 5pm and rightly so if that's what they signed up to.
A TD's job never finishes and they are responsible for everything from complex legislation to hassling the council to fix the potholes or whetever else people want them to do

 

[Sunny]

Isn't their pay linked to senior civil servants? Like Secretarys or a Principal officer?

I do remember when they got a €38,000 raise which was put off, that other sectors got raises too. Judges for example and judges definitly deserve to be well paid.

Maybe hitting out at a TD's salary is an easy option where there other people working for the state that are far more overpaid for what they do.

A civil servants job can finish at 5pm and rightly so if that's what they signed up to.
A TD's job never finishes and they are responsible for everything from complex legislation to hassling the council to fix the potholes or whetever else people want them to do

This isn't a debate on whether they are paid too much, my point is that they seem to benefit from every single pay award going around. Why are they linked to the joke that is the National Pay Agreement if they are then going to get special pay awards on top of this.

 

[ashambles]

€38,000 raise which was put off

Reasonably sure the deferred rise referred was for ministers not TDs.

they are responsible for everything from complex legislation

I doubt voting which ever way the party whip wants them to vote can be be termed being responsible for complex legislation. It certainly doesn't seem to be the case that when there's a problem with legislation you see the too many putting a hand up and saying the problem paragraph was written by his good self.

Quite a few TDs have difficulty understanding legislation or even bothering to read it. Many simply don't have the training or intellect to do so. That's what the CS and the highly paid advisers are there for.

Voting for people to do legislative work is like voting for people to do mathematically based work, with luck some manage and have an aptitude for it, but others will keep quiet so as to not to expose their ignorance.

 

[Green]

I doubt voting which ever way the party whip wants them to vote can be be termed being responsible for complex legislation.

Quite a few TDs have difficulty understanding legislation or even bothering to read it.

Agree completely, have you ever heard a Second Stage debate for a Bill? Apart from the opposition spokeperson who are reasonably cogent, the rest invariably waffle on about constituency issues which are not really the subject of the legislation. Also, what about that core group who rarely or never speak in the Dail what contribution do they make?

 

[Complainer]

Agree completely, have you ever heard a Second Stage debate for a Bill? Apart from the opposition spokeperson who are reasonably cogent, the rest invariably waffle on about constituency issues which are not really the subject of the legislation.

Given the breadth of areas covered in the Dail, it's not a huge surprise or hugely unreasonable that the relevant spokespersons are the cogent speakers on any given topic.

It's not fair to blame the TDs for focusing on the constituency issues. Blame the voters who vote on the basis of constituency issues instead.

On the TDs salary, I wouldn't take the job for twice the €100k - no job security, no private time, no private life, everybody owning a piece of you. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

 

[cole]

It's not fair to blame the TDs for focusing on the constituency issues. Blame the voters who vote on the basis of constituency issues instead.

It could be argued that the TDs encourage this parochial tendancy.

On the TDs salary, I wouldn't take the job for twice the €100k - no job security, no private time, no private life, everybody owning a piece of you. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Good pension though... and they don't need to work 40 years to get it.

 

[Sunny]

On the TDs salary, I wouldn't take the job for twice the €100k - no job security, no private time, no private life, everybody owning a piece of you. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

But thats the same for English MP's and I presume politicians in every country. Ours are still very highly paid. You can't have politicans spouting off about Ireland's lack of competiveness compared to other countries when their own pay and conditions do not stand up to scutiny when compared internationally.

But again its not really the point I was trying to make. My point is that politicians seem to benefit from every single pay review, benchmarking excercise, national pay agreements etc and I don't understand this. Why are they getting awards under the National Pay Agreements and topping this up with benchmarking etc and turning around and telling the people in the private sector that are affected by the pay agreement that they won't be getting any more than agreed at the pay talks.

I remember reading recently that senior civil servants who retired a few years ago are now earning more through their pensions that what they were earning when they retired due to various pay awards. This defies logic and for me is a utter disgrace.

 

[Green]

Given the breadth of areas covered in the Dail, it's not a huge surprise or hugely unreasonable that the relevant spokespersons are the cogent speakers on any given topic.

Does each TD not have a political researcher to do the research for them, paid by the taxpayer? We only pass about 40 pieces of leigislation a year and a number of those are recurrent pieces, e.g. Finance Bill, Social Welfare Bill

It's not fair to blame the TDs for focusing on the constituency issues. Blame the voters who vote on the basis of constituency issues instead.

We now pay councillors who are supposed to do this type of work! If every party decided in the morning that TD's would stop doing constituency work, then it would stop at that level!

On the TDs salary, I wouldn't take the job for twice the €100k - no job security, no private time, no private life, everybody owning a piece of you. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

One would presume as most TD were in a political party that they are well aware of the demands of the job before they start? The reality is that we have TD's, councillors and political researchers who are all doing the same constituency crap using up valuable resources that could be put into services..

 

[Complainer]

It could be argued that the TDs encourage this parochial tendancy.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg one, I guess

Good pension though... and they don't need to work 40 years to get it.

Fair point.

But thats the same for English MP's and I presume politicians in every country. Ours are still very highly paid. You can't have politicans spouting off about Ireland's lack of competiveness compared to other countries when their own pay and conditions do not stand up to scutiny when compared internationally.

I think you'd need to consider cost of living etc in any international comparison.

I remember reading recently that senior civil servants who retired a few years ago are now earning more through their pensions that what they were earning when they retired due to various pay awards. This defies logic and for me is a utter disgrace.

Sounds like a bit of a tabloid story. You'd need to consider inflation rates over the retirement period to do any kind of sensible comparison.

We now pay councillors who are supposed to do this type of work!

Not really. Councillors aren't 'junior TDs' - they have a specific set of responsibility on local authority issues, e.g. planning, housing, traffic, libraries. But they have nothing to do with many public service areas.

If every party decided in the morning that TD's would stop doing constituency work, then it would stop at that level!

Until a new party came along doing constituency work, and the suckers voted in the new party. Then we'd be back to square one.

Does each TD not have a political researcher to do the research for them, paid by the taxpayer? We only pass about 40 pieces of leigislation a year and a number of those are recurrent pieces, e.g. Finance Bill, Social Welfare Bill

True, but I think you are underestimating the complexity involved in putting together legislation.

One would presume as most TD were in a political party that they are well aware of the demands of the job before they start? The reality is that we have TD's, councillors and political researchers who are all doing the same constituency crap using up valuable resources that could be put into services..

I'm not looking for sympathy for TDs. I'm just trying to address the myth of it being a cushy number. The solution to the constituency crap lies in the hands of the constituents. Most people think it's a load of constituency crap, until it happens to be THEIR planning problem, or THEIR granny in hospital.

 

[CharlieC]

I don't have a problem with their salaries but have a problem with the unchecked nepotism that allows them to add up to 50k to the household income by hiring wives etc as assistants.

 

[Sunny]

I'm not looking for sympathy for TDs. I'm just trying to address the myth of it being a cushy number. The solution to the constituency crap lies in the hands of the constituents. Most people think it's a load of constituency crap, until it happens to be THEIR planning problem, or THEIR granny in hospital.

Nobody is claiming it is a cushy number. Again you are missing the point. My original question is why politicians seem to gain from every single pay award going around. Why are they getting increases under National Pay Agreements and then topping these up with benchmarking, pay reviews etc? This is what I mean:

Pay rises
Pay increases awarded to the Taoiseach, Tanaiste and ministers since the 1997 election under national wage agreements, the Review Body on Higher Remuneration and benchmarking:

July 1997: 2.5 per cent (subject to maximum increase of IR£5 a week), Partnership 2000

April 1998: 2.5 per cent (also removal of IR£5 per week ceiling), Partnership 2000

July 1998: 2.25 per cent, Partnership 2000

July 1999: 1.5 per cent, Partnership 2000

April 2000: 1 per cent, Partnership 2000

September 2000: 5 per cent (ofministerial salary only),Review Body

October 2000: 5.5 per cent, Programme for Prosperity and Fairness (PPF)

March 2001: 5 per cent (of ministerial salary only), Review Body

April 2001: 2 per cent, adjustment to PPF

July 2001:5 per cent (of ministerial salary only), Review Body

October 2001: 5.5 per cent, PPF

December 2001: (backdated from 2003) 2.75 per cent (of TD’s portion of salary only), benchmarking

April 2002: 1 per cent lump sum, PPF

April 2002: 5 per cent, Review Body October 2002: 4 per cent, PPF

January 2004: 5.5 per cent (of TDs’ salaries only), benchmarking

January 2004: 3 per cent, Sustaining Progress

July 2004: 2 per cent, Sustaining Progress

December 2004: 2 per cent, Sustaining Progress

June 2005: 1.5 per cent, Sustaining Progress II

June 2005: 2.5 per cent (of TDs’ salaries only), benchmarking

July 2005: 7.5 per ce nt (of ministerial salary only), Review Body

December 2005:1.5 per cent, Sustaining Progress II

June 2006: 2.5 per cent, Sustaining Progress II

December 2006: 3 per cent, Towards 2016

June 2007: 2 per cent, Towards 2016

September 2007: 5 per cent, Review Body

September 2008: 2 per cent, National Pay agreement

Source: Department of Finance

 

[csirl]

A TD's job never finishes and they are responsible for everything from complex legislation to hassling the council to fix the potholes or whetever else people want them to do

TDs work short hours and have long holidays. A TD is a legislator and is paid for time working on legislation in the Dail. The constituency clinic stuff is entirely voluntary and has absolutely nothing to do with the job that the TD receives a salary for.

In my opinion, TDs contituency work has very little influence. The majority of it is giving people the type of advice that they could get anyway from citizens advice centres or other State services, but less accurate as it is third hand and the TD is usually not an expert. TDs also get a lot of currency out of getting stuff for people that they are legally entitled to anyway and would have gotten if they'd asked for it themselves.

 

[Green]

Not really. Councillors aren't 'junior TDs' - they have a specific set of responsibility on local authority issues, e.g. planning, housing, traffic, libraries. But they have nothing to do with many public service areas.

Yes, they are, how many current TD were councillors. Also, were Councillors not paid so they could take day to day issues from TD's therefore freeing TD to concentrate policy.

True, but I think you are underestimating the complexity involved in putting together legislation.

I am well aware of how legislation is put together, however I don't think you understand the process.

Legislation is first drafted by the relevant Govt. Department in conjunction with the Attorney Generals Office. This is after it is approved for drafting by the Govt. A Bill and Explanatory Memo is then published and then it begins its passage through the Dail and Seanad, all TD do then is comment on it at either 2nd, Committee or Report Stage.. the only serious examination and changes to it are at Committee and Report Stages..

 

[Green]

In my opinion, TDs contituency work has very little influence. The majority of it is giving people the type of advice that they could get anyway from citizens advice centres or other State services, but less accurate as it is third hand and the TD is usually not an expert. TDs also get a lot of currency out of getting stuff for people that they are legally entitled to anyway and would have gotten if they'd asked for it themselves.

I agree with this. Also, TD's constituency work wastes valuable resources that could be put in elsewhere.