Success! Appealed FSO decision to High Court; FSO agreed not to challenge appeal, the day before .

laure

Registered User
Messages
6
Hello,
I am new to this forum and would greatly appreciate your view and comments.
In 2009 we got a loan of 30kfrom BOI with the manager of the agency with whom we had a very good relationship.We have a tracker mortgage and the loan was to be transferred to the mortgage within 6 months. When we apllied to do so it was refused "bank practice have changed" we were told to cut the story short.
We went to the FSO which ruled that BOI was right ( of course no prove of that verbal agreement) without an oral hearing.We have appealed the same on the ground of refusing us an oral hearing ( with BOI manager and another adviser from BOI who also told us it was common practice to transfer loan to mortgage at the time in 2009 ).Before going to the high court FSO agreed to reconsider the whole case .We are not refusing to pay the loan but just want to have it transferred as originally planned as it would be impossible for us to pay it otherwise.The difference in the repayments are massive and we would not have done it .We have no arrears anywhere else.
Anybody with a similar situation?
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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44,647
It makes no sense for BoI to hand out a loan only to consolidate it with a cheap tracker mortgage 6 months' later.

If the Ombudsman rules against you on a claim like this, it makes no sense in appealing it to the High Court, where you could end up with €100k of costs if you lose.

Brendan
 

laure

Registered User
Messages
6
Yes it makes no sense but it also makes no financial sense for us to take on a loan when we knew it was beyond our means in terms of repayments .That was very clear when we took on the loan with the manager that ONLY because it was to be transferred we were doing it .The loan was for house improvement and it was happening all the time .Our relationship with her was so close that on the day only my husband signed on the paperwork and signed for me as I couldn't make it that day to send the paperwork to Dublin. I know its her word against mine and i am pretty sure that she will deny everything in an oral hearing with the FSO.
 

Monbretia

Registered User
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2,049
The trouble was bank policy changed in the intervening time due to the financial situation in the country, she can't help it and neither can you. Similar situations were where people were advised to go with a sub prime lender and they could switch back to a main bank in a year or two but crash happened and banks wouldn't take them back on, another example guarantors on loans were told they come come off after a year or two, again didn't happen.

None of these things were given in writing because simply you wouldn't be allowed to as no one could guarantee or predict the future but based on past policies employees saw no reason why it would change barring something drastic, which as we all know is exactly what happened.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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44,647
Hi Monbretia

Have you heard of the bank offering personal loans and agreeing to add them to the mortgage 6 months later? I haven't. It seems very odd to me.

Brendan
 

Monbretia

Registered User
Messages
2,049
Brendan, there were many situations where for the purposes of speed a personal loan would be drawn down in a day whereas applying for a top up on a mortgage could take a lot longer. Reasons could be the mortgage might not be fully drawn down at the time (maybe stage payments, self build or renovations) in which case a top up couldn't be done or it could be on a 6 mth introductory offer that you couldn't amend until end of term, lots of different circumstances can arise where this would not have been uncommon. Once everything was sorted with the mortgage then you would just do a top up to it and clear the personal loan.

Unfortunately for OP the time lapse in this case was at a critical point in the Irish banking system and obviously this bank was not going to increase it's tracker debt or even top up mortgages maybe.


I was off sick for 4 weeks in 2009, when I came back to work it was like a different world, trackers were gone, mortgages were severely curtailed, personal lending next to impossible, it was quite incredible how quickly things changed.

PS I don't know about AIB but where I worked in 2009 branch calls were never recorded, only calls to Head Office call centres.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
44,647
Brendan, there were many situations where for the purposes of speed a personal loan would be drawn down in a day whereas applying for a top up on a mortgage could take a lot longer.

Thanks for that Monbretia. I hadn't heard of it before.

So the OP took out a €30k loan over 5 years at,say, 12% on the understanding that it could be switched to a 25 year loan at, say, 5%. That would be a difference of €500 a month in repayments.

It would be very hard for the Ombudsman to uphold such a complaint. The complainant would have to have some evidence of it, e.g. an email or a letter. There is zero chance that the High Court would overturn the Ombudsman's decision.

Brendan
 

thedaddyman

Registered User
Messages
697
I note the original post says that you were dealing with the "manager of the agency". Were you dealing with the bank direct or a 3rd party intermediary?. If the latter, they may not have had the authority to promise what you said was promised and your case may not be against BOI but rather against the agent and his company

Secondly, I note your husband signed on your behalf. There have been cases where the courts have upheld complaints when this has happened but like any court judgement each case would have to be judged on it's merits and it's far from certain that it would apply in your case.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bank-allowed-husband-to-sign-on-wifes-behalf-26459190.html

What is clear is that the bank failed to follow it's procedures by allowing your husband to sign on your behalf (I'm assuming it was a joint application requiring duel signatures) and that you admit they sold you a loan you can't afford. To me, that is the grounds for any complaint, not a failure to adhere to a verbal agreement which it's likely has never been recorded anywhere
 

Monbretia

Registered User
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2,049
The signatures on the loan acceptance and draw down documents will be the important ones as opposed to the application form.
 

laure

Registered User
Messages
6
To thedaddyman,

The loan is at a 9.97 % , our mortgage is at 1.3% over 25 years ! In essence, that alone, should prove that we are telling the truth.The difficulty is to prove it .We are meeting with our solicitor next week so I really appreciate your comments on this matter.
 

Monbretia

Registered User
Messages
2,049
I don't doubt your side of the story at all, totally believe it, but again the trouble was bank policy changed in the intervening time and staff could do nothing to fulfill what used to be normal enough transactions.
 

thedaddyman

Registered User
Messages
697
To thedaddyman,

The loan is at a 9.97 % , our mortgage is at 1.3% over 25 years ! In essence, that alone, should prove that we are telling the truth.The difficulty is to prove it .We are meeting with our solicitor next week so I really appreciate your comments on this matter.

Interest rates differences don't prove anything. All the bank has to say is that either they never said or that you misunderstood what was said and it becomes a case of your word against theirs. I'm not doubting what you are saying but you simply can't prove it is true at the minute.

There has also been some comments about fraud in other posts on this thread. To me, your case is less about fraud and more about incompetence and failure to follow proper controls and procedures.
 

44brendan

Registered User
Messages
2,538
Your best approach here is to continue being a nusiance to the Bank and hope that they will allow you some leeway!! Without definite proof they are unlikely to change their stance on not allowing the loan to be added to the mortgage. However, they do have the power to give you some flexibility on both rate and term and you should try to negotiate a compromise with hem based on the very particular circumstances that applied to your case. The difficulty with your current approach is that there appears to be no middle ground. Any reasonable banker should be able to negotiate a compromise with you.
Unfortunately it would appear that reasonable people are fairly thin on the ground in banking circles:(
 

laure

Registered User
Messages
6
Thank you all for your thoughts on our situation and please keep writing !Our solicitor is gathering more info and getting her figures right as what would the cost be on the original loan or if it had been transferred to our mortgage , repayments case a and repayment case b etc ... .The FSO hasn't been in touch with us yet but the bank is asking for the full repayment of the loan within 7 days , they are not going down the road of mediation that's for sure !
I should be meeting with our solicitor in the next few days. Thank you.
 

laure

Registered User
Messages
6
Just an update, we are still waiting to hear from FSO after a letter from our barrister was sent to them regarding the request for an oral hearing .He doesn't think that we will get anywhere near a solution with them and that the next move will be taking BOI to court regarding the loan. Nobody is getting stress over it but us ! Thank you.
 

bogstandard

Registered User
Messages
23
Instead of racking up all the costs of high court action, why not try and come to an accommodation and have the loan added to your mortgage at current mortgage rate.

Not a perfect solution, but BOI have five year fixed rates at about 3.7%.

Obviously just the short term loan is at this rate. Its probably the best target solution to aim for as even if you eventually won the case, the costs in time and stress are simply not worth it.
 

44brendan

Registered User
Messages
2,538
Just an update, we are still waiting to hear from FSO after a letter from our barrister was sent to them regarding the request for an oral hearing .He doesn't think that we will get anywhere near a solution with them and that the next move will be taking BOI to court regarding the loan. Nobody is getting stress over it but us ! Thank you.
I can't understand why there is no compromise being reached here. Has anyone picked up the phone and spoken with an involved bank official? FSO and Court are all very well but from my understanding of the situation the OP is relying on a verbal promise which is disputed. Talk is much cheaper that solicitors fees!!
 

todo

Registered User
Messages
260
Hi Laure,
I'm not surprised that BOI wont admit or own up to this. The FSO should have held an oral hearing and put the original Bank Manager on the stand. Very unfair that this was not done during the process.

You mentioned that the FSO are reconsidering the case. So I understand from this that they have already found against you? and now they are looking at it again?

How did you manage to make them reconsider it, I thought the only option after they make their ruling was the high court.
 

laure

Registered User
Messages
6
Hi All,
Well a year on and we won!!!!!!!
We finally got our oral hearing from the FSO after appealing their first decision to the high court.
Before it went to he high court ( The day before to be precise) , the FSO offered to reconsider the file and subsequently gave us a date for an oral hearing.
On the day of the oral hearing ,as we were ready to enter and give our statements , the representatives of BOI asked if we could have a meeting as they wanted to settle the case before any oral hearing.
We had nothing to lose listening to them and we always always kept the communication's lines opened with BOI anyway so we agreed and went to another room.
As my husband and I sat down ( couldn't afford a solicitor anymore so we were representing ourselves ) BOI offered a full settlement by writing off the loan all together and end any further complaint through the FSO or through the court.
I won't lie and saying that we were expecting this and it took us a few minutes to realise that after 7 hard years of fighting we had finally won more than we were asking for !
So for everybody out there keep fighting !
Thank you all for your comments help and just reading my post .
laure.
 
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