SOS IRELAND - Public Sector Pay Cuts!

[csirl]

I note with interest that you don't have any answers to the difficult challenges that I outlined around tendering for services that are inherently unpredictable in nature. Perhaps you'd like to go back and review these questions again and educate us all on the possible solutions instead of coming up with catch (yet meaningless) cliches.

Very very simple. If you dont look after these cases well, then you dont get paid and you dont get the lucrative contract when it is up for renewal.

You neglect to point out that the HSE currently has a terrible track record in dealing with these cases, yet there is no remedy. There doesnt appear to be any incentive for HSE hospitals to do a good job - they dont get paid any more if they do. What incentive do HSE paid staff have to go the extra mile with a difficult case?

 

[Complainer]

Very very simple. If you dont look after these cases well, then you dont get paid and you dont get the lucrative contract when it is up for renewal.

That's simplistic rather than simple. Try defining 'well' in terms of looking after these cases. Come up with a definition that will stand up in a court case involving a disputed provider.

Your proposal about contract renewal is probably illegal and misguided. Renewal is tomorrow. If the provider is not providing the service, it needs to be addressed today. Tomorrow is no good to today's patients.

When the tender comes up for renewal, all tenderers have legal entitlements to equal treatment, whether or not they are already providing the service.

You neglect to point out that the HSE currently has a terrible track record in dealing with these cases, yet there is no remedy.

Do you have a source for this 'terrible track record'. Anecdotal evidence suggests that many people get excellent service from HSE, once they manage to get through the waiting list and get in the door.

You neglect to point out that the HSE currently has a terrible track record in dealing with these cases, yet there is no remedy. There doesnt appear to be any incentive for HSE hospitals to do a good job - they dont get paid any more if they do. What incentive do HSE paid staff have to go the extra mile with a difficult case?

Strange as it might seem, the primary incentive for staff (particularly medical staff) is not money. If money was their primary incentive, they probably wouldn't be working there in the first place.

The current situation is extremely difficult. Knee jerk implementation of rushed and ill-thought out solutions will make it a whole lot worse.

 

[Purple]

Strange as it might seem, the primary incentive for staff (particularly medical staff) is not money. If money was their primary incentive, they probably wouldn't be working there in the first place.

You must be joking;
Nurses: Strikes for pay rise a few years back and this year a threatened strike for an even shorter week and the pay rise which amounted to a 25% increase in their hourly rate.
Consultants: years (maybe a decade) of negotiations for a new contract held up by their astronomical pay claims and massive subsidy of their private practice by the state.
GP’s: Earning in excess of €150k a year on average in private practice with an additional €100k plus from medical card patients (if they are lucky enough to be in the golden circle of GP’s that can get a medical card list) plus grants from the HSE, plus payments for vaccines that the practice nurse administers.

Not in it for the money? Take your head out of the clouds!

The current situation is extremely difficult. Knee jerk implementation of rushed and ill-thought out solutions will make it a whole lot worse.

I agree, it would be almost as bad as doing nothing or listening to those who only offer reasons why things can’t be changed.

 

[Towger]

Not in it for the money? Take your head out of the clouds!

I don' think Complainer has any medical people in the family. BTW you left out the HSE's Mileage allowance... Very important... That is...
To be honest is sickens me when I hear the nurses going on about 'Our basic pay is only 28k etc'. I don't see them showing us their payslips, so we can tot up all the half dozen or so extra allowances on top of that 'basic rate'.

 

[ubiquitous]

If money was their primary incentive, they probably wouldn't be working there in the first place.

Ah yes, the old "we need benchmarking" argument

 

[Complainer]

I suppose it was fairly predictable (and fairly sad) that a few AAM heads would explode at the idea that not everyone's primary motivation in their career is money.

I don' think Complainer has any medical people in the family.

Several, as it happens, between family, close friends and neighbours, both in public sector and private practice. Mostly nursing and paramedics, rather than docs.

BTW you left out the HSE's Mileage allowance... Very important... That is...

Left it out of what? I didn't make any reference to remuneration, so I'm confused as to why you think I left out one particular allowance. But do feel free to share more details about it. Presumably it applies to those staff who use their personal cars on HSE business - right?

To be honest is sickens me when I hear the nurses going on about 'Our basic pay is only 28k etc'. I don't see them showing us their payslips, so we can tot up all the half dozen or so extra allowances on top of that 'basic rate'.

Sickens me too, the way they expect to be paid a bit extra for working weekends or the night shift. Bloody parasites eh?
Hint:I'm being sarcastic here.

Ah yes, the old "we need benchmarking" argument

Well, not really, but feel free to keep dragging up old arguements if you like.

 

[ubiquitous]

Well, not really, but feel free to keep dragging up old arguements if you like.

Benchmarking is not an "old argument" but a serious contributor to our current public finances problem. You must think we have the memories of goldfish.

 

[Complainer]

Benchmarking is not an "old argument" but a serious contributor to our current public finances problem. You must think we have the memories of goldfish.

I'd be happy to have a balanced debate with you about benchmarking anytime, but I don't see that it is particularly relevant to my point about motivation.

Funny how the simplistic solutions about tendering just dissappear into the mist when a few tough questions are posed!

 

[Purple]

Funny how the simplistic solutions about tendering just dissappear into the mist when a few tough questions are posed!

Ah yes, the "wall of questions about the details" answer that is trotted out by those who resist change for the sake of it; reject the idea because the details are not worked out, not accept that the idea is worth looking at and then seek to work out the details. Well done.

The details will not be worked out here but it remains true that duplication of services and rack of focus on core competencies is a problem in the public sector and needs to be looked at.

 

[aircobra19]

Ah yes, the old "we need benchmarking" argument

I don't see the connection between benchmarking and people choosing to work in the public sector. A lot of people I know in the sector like the fact that they are working not to generate profit, but to help people. Obviously not everyone. But still theres a large element of truth in that. They might forget that once they are rise to the top, I dunno.

The problem with benchmarking was not benchmarking which in itself is a valid idea. IMO. It was the very poor implementation of it that was the problem. In theory it should reduce wages too.

 

[Purple]

The problem with benchmarking was not benchmarking which in itself is a valid idea. IMO. It was the very poor implementation of it that was the problem. In theory it should reduce wages too.

I agree, but then it was only ever about buying off the public sector unions.

 

[aircobra19]

How do you mean "buying off"?

If you mean appeasing, how else in times of boom would you appease the unions?

 

[Purple]

how else in times of boom would you appease the unions?

You don't appease them, you do what is in the natonal interest. Benchmarking came into existence not because of some vague perception (which turned out to be completely false) that the public sector was under paid; it came into existence because nurses and Garda couldn’t afford a house. Instead of taking the heat out of the property market (and not letting the banks get into the state they are in now) the government increased pay levels so that nurses and Garda could buy at bubble prices. The whole thing was a disaster for the economy.

 

[aircobra19]

How do mean "buying off"?

If you don't negotiate with unions you'll have industrial disputes all the time. Effectively union busting. Thats what you were advocating for 1992?

Are you claiming benchmarking overheated the economy?

The evil public sector, with the army clerical workers driving around in 4x4's and exec saloons, buying multiple properties to let? Or is that builders and taxi drivers? Not every one in public sector is over paid.

 

[Purple]

How do mean "buying off"?

In my opinion benchmarking was tantamount to the government conspiring with the unions to defraud the people of Ireland. There was no basis to the core argument that the public sector was underpaid and the measurement matrix used was never published.

If you don't negotiate with unions you'll have industrial disputes all the time. Effectively union busting. Are you claiming benchmarking overheated the economy?

You talk to unions and take their opinions on board, then those with a constitutional and democratic mandate to run the country. That's not what happened.

 

[aircobra19]

Hang on a FF govt who didn't think something through before implementing it. By happy coincidence making all their cronies better off? Thats crazy talk.

I think they found that matrix on the back of betting slip the day someone won big on the horses. Well if you believe one...

Negotiating is appeasing unions. They are exist to bring the employee to negotiation. Either you or you don't. Negotiating is not the same as buying them off, and negotiating is not the same as not appeasing them. So I dunno where you going with that. You want it both ways.

But the important point we can blame the current crisis on the public sector.

 

[Green]

Benchmarking is not an "old argument" but a serious contributor to our current public finances problem. You must think we have the memories of goldfish.

I agree, but then it was only ever about buying off the public sector unions.

In my opinion benchmarking was tantamount to the government conspiring with the unions to defraud the people of Ireland. There was no basis to the core argument that the public sector was underpaid and the measurement matrix used was never published.

You talk to unions and take their opinions on board, then those with a constitutional and democratic mandate to run the country. That's not what happened.

There were a number of faults with benchmarking not least of all the secret calculations on the first round which were not made public. However, the people returned to power the Government which instigated and brought in benchmarking.

 

[Green]

Hang on a FF govt who didn't think something through before implementing it. By happy coincidence making all their cronies better off? Thats crazy talk.

I think they found that matrix on the back of betting slip the day someone won big on the horses. Well if you believe one...

Negotiating is appeasing unions. They are exist to bring the employee to negotiation. Either you or you don't. Negotiating is not the same as buying them off, and negotiating is not the same as not appeasing them. So I dunno where you going with that. You want it both ways.

But the important point we can blame the current crisis on the public sector.

I think we have to come to a simple understanding in this country. You can have partnership or you can have reform, we choose partnership and consequently didn't get a huge amount of reform. However, to blame the current recession in Ireland on the public sector is crazy.

 

[aircobra19]

Its minor contributory factor IMO.

The primary one is an Govt thats unable to manage the economy and appears fixate on personal gain, and cronyism. Especially within the building sector, and the public sector. Which makes it very difficult for the Govt to take a hard line with both. Also the failure of the opposition to offer a credible alternative.

 

[Purple]

I think we have to come to a simple understanding in this country. You can have partnership or you can have reform, we choose partnership and consequently didn't get a huge amount of reform.

Excellent point; you have just sumed up the root cause of what went wrong over the last 10 years.