Show me the evidence (Vintners Federation of Ireland)

A

ajapale

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The publicans have been issuing the same press release since early june.

The Vintners Federation of Ireland (VFI), which represents 6,000 publicans, said its members had suffered a 15-20% drop in business since the (smoking) ban came into effect on March 29
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.

I challenge this assertion. The vintners will have to come up with some more convincing evidence before I would accept it.

This statistic is repeated around the world where it is picked up on the wires. Do the VFI (or BIG TOBACCO) think that if they reapeat the assertion often enough that people will accept it with out challenge?

ajapale
 
> The vintners will have to come up with some more convincing evidence before I would accept it.

Sources close to The Palace say...

[broken link removed]

:lol
 
Re.Show me the evidence (Vintners Federation of Ireland)

Quote:

The Vintners Federation of Ireland (VFI), which represents 6,000 publicans, said its members had suffered a 15-20% drop in business since the (smoking) ban came into effect on March 29


If this keeps up they might have to start actually competing with each other, trying to cut costs and even (gasp!) charging less for drink!!!
 
Re.Show me the evidence (Vintners Federation of Ireland

I love the fact that the vintners are more willing to break the law (by flouting the smoking ban) and care less about the health of their employees and customers than they are about reducing their prices, which is the real reason why their turnover is down.
 
Maybe Government is to blame (as usual)

I've just come back from holiday where a .5litre of beer is just over a euro.

I also bought some duty free. A litre of blackbush cost €15. I was amazed. I assume the rest of the money (we're charged in ireland) is mainly taxes.
 
Re.Maybe Government is to blame (as usual)

The vitners keep a % mark up on the price that they pay for the drink, so the more expensive their raw material is the more profit they make.
The oil companies did this in the 50's but I havn't heard of it since!
 
Re: Re.Maybe Government is to blame (as usual)

I assume the rest of the money (we're charged in ireland) is mainly taxes.
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Last I heard there wasn't any duty on Soft Drinks (apart from VAT). But it's more expensive than alcohol. If you're going to load people with excessive charges you'd think it'd be the ones who are too drunk to notice. Why they insist on fleecing their sober customers I don't know.

Unless they want to punish us for not joining in the drink culture.

-Rd
 
Re: Re.Maybe Government is to blame (as usual)

I want to see the evidence as well, however even if it were true so what? business goes through cycles and things go out of style. My Rubix cube business has been struggling for a few yeas now. All business is simply a temporary monopoly be it an idea, a service or a product. Publicans have no absolute right to be profitable, certainly not at the expense of workers' health. Perhaps the construction companies had better profits before they were forced to protect workers from unnecessary risk, should H&S laws be repealed to appease these interests? I think not.

On the question of figures, I would like to see rolling figures for Turn over and profit for at least 5 years. Any shorter term figures may mask existing trends. These figures need to be authenticated by a disinterested party.

Added comment 14/08/04:
I was speaking with a friend who works for Guinness sales, she says that the start of the rot was the Millenium, that night was geared up to be the rip off to end all rip offs. Instead many many folks arranged house parties. Pub sales have never recovered, and off sales have continued to grow.
 
the start of the rot was the Millenium,

the start of the rot was the Millenium,
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This is a very interesting observation. I think the vintners need to be looking at other factors as well such as demographics and life style changes.
 
Re: the start of the rot was the Millenium,

Although I don't have a link or reference to back this up I did read an interesting article recently on the decrease in publicans profits.

The article claimed that profits in 2003 were down on 2002, while Off-licence sales were up. This was, of course attributed to the high price of drink. With the pending smoking ban the publicans were of course not going to highlight the drop in their sales until the ban was underway.

I thought it was interesting and made sense. Reminded me of the publican in Galway blaming his poor sales on the ban, ignoring the fact he had no road outside his pub!

Was good to hear a quote from a publican in todays Sunday World, saying it was time 'to stop moaning and do something for the customer' who are 'fed up of getting bad service at rip off prices' (See Pub Spy, SW)
 
Re: the start of the rot was the Millenium,

Hi Havana,

Sources within both Guinness and Heineken Ireland mirrored these comments and feedback, indicating that no significant decreases in sales have been recorded since the smoking ban came into law.
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Yes, I think the vintners have allowed themselves to be hijacked by BigTobacco. BigTobacco continue to encourage lies and untruths about the Irish Ban (and the NY ban) as part of their on going battle in larger more important markets (ie the UK)

There is a quickly evolving market out there and the vintners need to address the real issues facing the industry.

Incidently, I dont agree with the commonly held belief that price is the main issue. I believe that price is used by consumers as an easy proxy for a range of issues they find difficult to articulate.

Irish society is changing. Pub owners can be successfull if they find out how it is changing and react to the change.

ajapale
 
Re: the start of the rot was the Millenium,

A good friend of mine owns a pub 8 miles outside a large town in the midlands. He claims his turnover is down 20% but does not blame the smoking ban but that their is less money out their.
Are publicans blaming the smoking ban as a result of their decline in business due to less money in circulation for drinking?

Johno
 
I would tend to disagree that there is less money out there. I still have the same albeit small monthly disposable income for going out as I had in the stronger celtic tiger years.

However, given the increase in pub prices, this amount no longer covers a good night/s out. And I can't justify spending more than budgeted for hence I now stay in with a decent bottle of red.

This reality annoys me greatly!!!! Bad enough that all my mates are now married and having babies which had decreased by social life exponentially but now the vinters are ensuring that I'll end up living a lone existence with cats. (and god, do I hate cats !)
 
Yes, I think the vintners have allowed themselves to be hijacked by BigTobacco. BigTobacco continue to encourage lies and untruths about the Irish Ban (and the NY ban) as part of their on going battle in larger more important markets (ie the UK)
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What is "Big Tobacco" and what are the lies and untruths about the ban that they are peddling? The three main tobacco companies in this country, sorry, Big Tobacco, are hardly being affected by the smoking ban in the workplace. People continue to smoke regardless of the ban, they just smoke in areas where the ban doesn't apply. I'm sure that numbers giving up are quite small in relative terms. Therefore I cannot see why they would have to resort to lies and untruths and I cannot see vintners being hijacked by anybody but themselves.
 
People continue to smoke regardless of the ban, they just smoke in areas where the ban doesn't apply

Hi davido,

I think it's because they know that moves like this spell the end of them. The fall-off in terms of people quitting since the ban might be relatively small now but it means that future generations will be less likely to take up the nasty habit...thus they're probably thinking long-term.

...and I cannot see vintners being hijacked by anybody but themselves.
I wholeheartedly agree. The vintners are a blind lot in this country in my opinion.
 
The fall-off in terms of people quitting since the ban might be relatively small now but it means that future generations will be less likely to take up the nasty habit...thus they're probably thinking long-term.
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To clarify, unfortunately for me I am a smoker. I think the smoking ban is a great thing. I wholeheartrdly support it but in a funny way, I think tobacco manufacturers do too. More time is spent policing this ban and talking about this ban and talking about vintners using it as an excuse for turnover dropping etc, than is spent talking about how to educate young people to think before they start smoking. This is the day when "Big Tobacco" will start getting worried. Shopkeepers still sell cigarettes to minors, not vintners.
 
QUOTE>...talking about how to educate young people to think before they start smoking.

If those godawful 'Nico - there's nothing cool about smoking' is the best they can do with their budget, then there's no hope of getting the kids to think twice.

For all their gloss and obvious expense, these campaigns are clearly not connecting with the teenagers. I suggest a photo in Heat magazine of their favourite celeb with smoke in hand is still the most effective message, and the only one likely to get noticed...unfortunately
 
For all their gloss and obvious expense, these campaigns are clearly not connecting with the teenagers. I suggest a photo in Heat magazine of their favourite celeb with smoke in hand is still the most effective message, and the only one likely to get noticed...unfortunately
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In nearly every pic I see of Brittney Spears these day, she has a ciggie in her hand.

I think the best way to connect to teenagers is to take them on a day trip to St Lukes hospital and let them see the damage they could end up inflicting on themselves.
 
Hi Davido,

Welcome to the debate ;)

What is "Big Tobacco"?
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They are the huge world wide tobacco companies

what are the lies and untruths about the ban that they are peddling?
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None, because they fool the hospitality industry (read vintners) to do it for them.

three main tobacco companies in this country, sorry, Big Tobacco, are hardly being affected by the smoking ban in the workplace.
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Gallahers reported a 16% decrease last month


Try a google search for Big Tobacco tactics hospitality and you will get plenty hits which will explain far better than I.




[broken link removed]

www.ashaust.org.au/SF'03/ventilation.htm

[broken link removed]

ajapale
 
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