Should we have some CGT on the family home?

I am thinking about the millenial generation, people under 40.
In general these people cant get on the property ladder.
We all know the reasons why.
Your proposal would really screw a lot of people.
The goal should be to enable people to buy and own their own property.
If parental help is needed via inheritance or gift, that is their business.
I am seeing RED here, and I dont think Ireland needs any more socialism.
 
I am thinking about the millenial generation, people under 40.
In general these people cant get on the property ladder.
We all know the reasons why.

Hi fisto

My intention is to help these people get on the housing ladder!

5) Would there be some way of ringfencing the tax generated by this measure to help younger people get on the housing ladder? For example, abolish VAT on starter homes bought by FTBs? And fund this through the CGT measures.
 
Hi PMU

I am proposing to tax the gains from selling a house. I would like to see people paying tax on their gains rather than as at the moment, ordinary people paying Local Property Tax on on ongoing basis.

Brendan
I understand that, but domestic property is unique. Purchasing a domestic property entails the purchase of (a) a service, i.e. the provision of shelter and (b) a fixed asset i.e. the walls, roof, foundations, etc. In practical terms these are indivisible. You can’t efficiently separate out the what the family has paid for its family-specific shelter needs from any increase in value of the fixed asset component.

And consumers understand this. Families buy domestic property primarily to meet their shelter needs and associated family-specific intangibles (i.e. is the property close to work, schools, other family members, etc.). Asset appreciation is not the primary consideration on purchase, if at all. (Without wishing to go off topic, when purchasers add asset appreciation potential above their shelter needs, they may, i.e. almost certainly will, overpay for a property. And they are buying on margin. So when property prices or interest rates fluctuate, which they do, such purchasers may well be in negative equity / can't continue their mortgage payments / attempt strategic default, etc. Of course, in this country, such purchasers don't lose their property. They are bailed-out.).

As properties tend to increase in value in tandem, you’ve no real gain when you sell when your shelter needs change as any gain will be swallowed up due to property price inflation. It’s unreasonable to tax such interim gains.
 
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As properties tend to increase in value in tandem, you’ve no real gain when you sell when your shelter needs change as any gain will be swallowed up due to property price inflation. It’s unreasonable to tax such interim gains.

That is easily dealt with by having roll-over relief. The CGT is refundable if the person buys another house. So, for most people, the CGT liability will hit on death.

Brendan
 
With people living longer, from a societal point of view, it seems like an ineffective way for capital to be recycled in that people in their 50's, 60's and 70's receive large windfalls when they are established and preparing for retirement themselves. The money will just be re-invested or kept in cash or whatever.

It would seem far more beneficial if the wealth was distributed when their children are proposing to get on the housing ladder themselves or taxed as is proposed in the thread.
 
Not an issue going forward. Can be reported in real time (say within 2 years of completion) and invoice can be uploaded to revenue directly for automatic calculation when the time comes.
It would be a huge issue for the next 50 to 60 years. There are young people currently not long settled down in their new homes who will die in old age while still living there.

And the idea that a compulsory reporting system (as if it would ever work, it frankly sounds like something the CCP would dream up) could in half a century's time be reliably relied upon to guide the CGT treatment of those homes at that point is fanciful to put it mildly. When data is held that long, the risks of its corruption, misinterpretation or eventual redundancy is strong.
 
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That is easily dealt with by having roll-over relief. The CGT is refundable if the person buys another house.

Brendan
If you are offering 100% enduring roll-over relief you might as well not charge CGT at all, as all you are doing is introducing additional bureaucratic friction in housing transactions. It’s also unreasonable to refund CGT where a person buys another family home but to charge it without refund where someone of necessity cannot buy another property because they must enter a care home or otherwise rent sheltered accommodation.

It also would contribute to slowing down of property transactions. Why sell and incur CGT, when you can just continue to live in your family home and leave it as a bequest? The beneficiaries may have to pay CAT, where the property is valued above the relevant CAT group threshold. If it isn’t they have no tax liability. So if the owner sells they pay CGT, but a beneficiary may not have any tax liability.
So, for most people, the CGT liability will hit on death.

Brendan
But there is no CGT liability on shares transferred on death. Why introduce one on property?
Hi PMU

I am proposing to tax the gains from selling a house. I would like to see people paying tax on their gains rather than as at the moment, ordinary people paying Local Property Tax on on ongoing basis.

Brendan
The solution here lies more in introducing spending limits on local authorities; the elimination of vanity projects; strict control of project costs, etc.
 
Barra Roantree has raised this issue again recently and the Commission on Taxation recommended restricting the relief.

7.6.1.2 Principal Private Residence Relief

Recommendation

7.2 The Commission recommends that the Capital Gains Tax Principal Private Residence Relief should be restricted over time.


As is clear from the data set out in this chapter, property is the most significant form of wealth held by Irish households. Indeed, there is a striking disparity between the average wealth of those households who own a home, and those who do not, which is becoming an increasingly significant dividing line in Irish society (see Tables 6 and 12). As is discussed in Chapter 14 (Land and Property), however, the Commission strongly believes that the best way to tax land and property is through annual value-based taxes.

At the same time, the complete exclusion of Principal Private Residences (PPRs) from CGT is an anomaly. The taxation system currently provides that the disposal of a property, which was occupied by the taxpayer, or by a dependent relative of the taxpayer, as their sole or main residence, does not give rise to a chargeable gain. Partial relief may apply where the property was not fully occupied as a main residence throughout the period of ownership or where the sale price reflects development value. There is currently no limit to the house value or gain that can qualify for PPR Relief.

There is currently very limited data on the cost of PPR Relief as a tax expenditure. The total consideration reported in 2019 and 2020 for disposals of PPRs was €906 million and €837 million respectively. However, the current monetary value of CGT forgone is unknown, as
is the number of claimants and number of properties it has applied to. Such data gaps are unhelpful. Like all other tax expenditures, the cost of PPR Relief should be measured and subject to regular review so that tax policy can be developed on an informed basis.

The rationale for PPR Relief is to ensure that the sale of a house, which will generally be replaced with another house, can be done on a tax-neutral basis. The tax savings from PPR Relief generate more disposable funds for the next purchase of a PPR.

Property values have increased substantially over recent decades, and these increases have arbitrarily increased household wealth. Maintaining the exclusion of PPRs in its entirety means that a proportion of these gains and a source of household wealth will go untaxed indefinitely. The uncapped nature of the relief may also create an incentive for people to invest in owner-occupied housing assets in a way which, in the long run, increases house prices and reduces investment in economically-productive assets. On the other hand, removing the exemption in its entirety is also problematic, as it could create lock-in effects at a time when it is important to avoid further distortions in the housing sector.

The OECD has previously suggested that policymakers should explore the phasing out of some of the tax advantages that favour home ownership and that tend to benefit better-off households, including by imposing a limit on the value of owner-occupied housing that benefits from an exemption from taxation on capital gains. In a 2018 report, the OECD noted that higher income households are likely to purchase more expensive homes and have more of their savings directed towards owner-occupied housing, and that one way of mitigating the adverse distributional effects of an open-ended exemption on owner occupied housing would be to cap this benefit. The report suggests such a cap could be imposed at a relatively high level to ensure that only those properties, and the high end of the residential housing market, are affected.

The Commission has considered different mechanisms by which the PPR Relief could be curtailed. These include the imposition of a threshold based on the value of the property sold, or a cap on the relief based on the amount of the capital gain. However, given the disparity in house values across the country, it may be difficult to set one threshold that appropriately reflects regional differences, whereas
different thresholds depending on location may lead to other inequities. Another option would be to apply a lower rate of CGT to disposals of PPRs. The latter option may be more equitable given regional house value differences and at a minimum, would ensure a contribution to the State from all profitable disposals of houses, as opposed to a relatively high threshold which may not yield as much in revenue.

The Commission’s view is that, in the short term, the priority with regard to taxing PPRs should be to increase the yield from the LPT as outlined in Chapter 14 (Land and Property), and that PPR relief should be restricted over time, with the precise mechanism to achieve this requiring further consideration.

Recommendation

7.2 The Commission recommends that the Capital Gains Tax Principal Private Residence Relief should be restricted over time.
 
In the US, gains above an exclusion limit ($250k for an individual or $500k for a couple filing jointly) on the sale of a primary residence are subject to CGT.

Seems reasonable to me.
 
In the US, gains above an exclusion limit ($250k for an individual or $500k for a couple filing jointly) on the sale of a primary residence are subject to CGT.

Seems reasonable to me.
The above suggestion over time may lead to people downsizing or should I say rightsizing when it comes to both building and buying and where to live,
 
Would it not be a disincentive to trade down?

I sell my home for $2m with a capital gain of $750k.
The first $250k is exempt.
I pay Capital Gains Tax on the next $500k.
People hate paying tax and may well stay put to avoid paying it.

The only tax incentive to trade down would be a real property tax.
 
If the point is to allow people to move without having to pay CGT, then they could just exempt the purchase price of the new house.

It might be worth "remembering" the original price of the original PPR.

If someone buys a PPR for 250k and then selling it for 400k, they would have 150k of a taxable increase.

If instead, they buy a new 500k PPR with the 400k, then there would be no CGT due. However, the original price would be remembered.

They would have a 500k house with an original price of 250k.

Fairness, would mean they have to weight it. Since they used the revenue of the old house for 80% of the purchase, the baseline price for CGT could be 80/20 split.

400k = 80% of sales price, so 80% of the baseline is 250k
100k = 20% of sales price, so 20% of the baseline is 500k

0.8 * 250 + 0.2 * 500 = 300k

So, they would have a 500k house with a 300k baseline price.

For downsizing, I think some of the CGT would be due.

If they sold the house for 400k and then downsized to 300k, then one option would be the following.

75% of sale funds used for purchase (300k of 400k)
75% of 250k = 187.5k is the new baseline

25% of sales funds kept (100k of 400k)
25% of gain = 0.25 * 150k = 37.5k
CGT payable on 37.5k

They would have to pay CGT on 37.5k of gain and also have a 300k house with a 187.5k baseline going forward.

This means that you can avoid paying CGT if you keep the money in a PPR, but once that ends, the original baseline is still the original purchase price. Eventually, the CGT will be due.

Some CGT has to be paid if you downsize, but in that case, it only happens if there is money from the sale available.
 
ome CGT has to be paid if you downsize, but in that case, it only happens if there is money from the sale available.
If the tax was up and running CGT tax could be used to encourage people to downsize,
Even using the USA tax as an example if you down sized in good time while both partners are still alive you appear to be better tax wise,
 
I've said it before but owning, buying, selling for one PPR, for social and stability purposes should never be treated via CGT. A person shouldn't be forced down specific pathways by policy, including not moving or having to downsize due to property taxes.
In addition, removing the ability to realise tax free value to upsize or move to better locations hits those at the lower end of the wealth scale, and would prevent social mobility. Those at the upper end of wealth won't care too much.

I wholly disagree with it, but if it was to be scoped, it would be fairer to exempt the smaller gains for the above reasons, perhaps rolling it into the lifetime tax free value which could be increased from the current 200,000 which mainly covers redundancy and pension lumpsums, to include inheritance 400,000, and another amount for small PPR move gains. Perhaps a 1M ceiling.
 
I've said it before but owning, buying, selling for one PPR, for social and stability purposes should never be treated via CGT. A person shouldn't be forced down specific pathways by policy, including not moving or having to downsize due to property taxes.
We use taxation to encourage all sorts of behaviour. We tax tobacco and alcohol, we have higher and lower rates of VAT, we tax car ownership very heavily. Why should expensive homes be exempt?

In addition, removing the ability to realise tax free value to upsize or move to better locations hits those at the lower end of the wealth scale, and would prevent social mobility.
People who don't own property are the ones at the lower end of the scale. There is far more wealth in the country than there used to be. There is certainly far more relative to the income generated from work. Therefore the old assumption that if you get a good job and save up you can buy your way into "middle class" suburbia doesn't apply any more. That means we have to change our taxation system to take that into account unless we want to end up with a very unequal society.

Those at the upper end of wealth won't care too much.
What do you mean by the upper end? An income of €290k a year gets you into the top 1%. That's just under €160k after tax or €13,000 a month. A family of 2 with a large mortgage will spend around €4,000 on the mortgage and €2,000 on childcare. They end up with €7000 a month. If they contribute to pensions that's lower again. That's comfortable but if they sell their gaff they'll still not want to pay a large CGT bill.

I wholly disagree with it, but if it was to be scoped, it would be fairer to exempt the smaller gains for the above reasons, perhaps rolling it into the lifetime tax free value which could be increased from the current 200,000 which mainly covers redundancy and pension lumpsums, to include inheritance 400,000, and another amount for small PPR move gains. Perhaps a 1M ceiling.
I would rather have annual taxes on retained wealth, i.e. meaningful property taxes. That's better social engineering and I'm all in favour of social engineering.
 
A person shouldn't be forced down specific pathways by policy, including not moving or having to downsize due to property taxes.

But we are doing that now. The massive tax benefits of owning your own home vs. renting "force" anyone who can to buy their own home.

Having said that, I am not sure that we should use the tax system to force/encourage people to downsize. But maybe we could incentivise it. A general CGT on profits would not incentivise it.
 
I don't think I should be able to realise gains of €2m free of CGT. I think many/most people would agree.

I don't think that someone who makes €100k trading up should be hit by CGT.

So the question is what is the fair amount between €100k and €2m?

Would we start with a lifetime exemption of gains on the family home of €500k?

Anyone trading up could roll over the liability to the next house.

Anyone over the age of 65 trading down, would have a liability but it would be deferred until their death.
 
I think that's a balanced set of questions Brendan, and would agree with some level of lifetime exemption.
I disagree with deferred taxation on death, but really a different question.
 
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