Should we have a referendum on housing in Ireland?

I agree with you Brendan but I think the consultation is about the wording of the proposed amendment, not the principle of whether there should be one.

Even with a constitutional right to housing I'm not sure it would change very much. Housing policy is just about dividing up finite economic resources via government policy. It's not about personal rights that are easier to vindicate such as the right to divorce or to a fair trial. The Supreme Court has usually deferred to the Oireachtas on tax-and-spending policy.
 
Referenda tend to ask yes/no questions. What question could they ask that would make any meaningful contributions towards solving some of the current housing issues? I can't see this being anything other than a massive waste of money that would be better spent elsewhere.
 
Leo said:
Referenda tend to ask yes/no questions. What question could they ask that would make any meaningful contributions towards solving some of the current housing issues? I can't see this being anything other than a massive waste of money that would be better spent elsewhere.
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Concur with this, seems a strange initiative.
 
I agree, I would not be in favour of a housing referendum.

Very few people are born into homelessness. In a well ordered society parents should make good choices on having children who they are prepared to support into adulthood. There are always exceptions and sad cases and I am not covering them.

Parents, society and education should instill in these children that it is their responsibility to be able to support themselves in adulthood, to earn a living that supports the lifestyle they wish to lead, to educate themselves to gain the skills needed to earn that living. To make life changing decisions such as leaving home, finding a partner, having children based on their ability to self fund those life style decisions.

Other cultures and countries can do it, Ireland should as well. I think our political, moral & societal leaders should be pushing this agenda of responsible citizens who make life style and life changing decisions based on their ability to self fund these changes.

And yes people will fall through the gaps at every step and we have safety nets in place but it should not be the responsibility of the state to provide housing for all.
 
Leo said:
Referenda tend to ask yes/no questions. What question could they ask that would make any meaningful contributions towards solving some of the current housing issues? I can't see this being anything other than a massive waste of money that would be better spent elsewhere.
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Agree.. Complete waste of time /money and driven by the likes of SF and Paul Murphy
 
Bluefin said:
Agree.. Complete waste of time /money and driven by the likes of SF and Paul Murphy
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Well, Peter McVerry has a representative on the Commission, as has ICTU! :)

The important thing here is that people who are opposed to such a referendum send in their observations; because you can bet your bottom dollar that the "housing is a human right" activists will!
 
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If were to have and pass a referendum on this it would simply add another layer onto a so called " crisis ",which isn't really a crisis as we have the resources to solve the housing issue now.

But the political and societal will isn't there, and I doubt a referendum would change anything.

Passing a referendum is one thing getting the correct legislation is all together a much tougher task, which could be done now without any vote.

Social housing in Ireland is a multi billion euro industry and a referendum isn't going to change that.
 
Clamball said:
Parents, society and education should instill in these children that it is their responsibility to be able to support themselves in adulthood, to earn a living that supports the lifestyle they wish to lead, to educate themselves to gain the skills needed to earn that living. To make life changing decisions such as leaving home, finding a partner, having children based on their ability to self fund those life style decisions.
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That's easily said but plenty of children are born into dysfunctional families where addiction, functional illiteracy and crime and the trauma that goes with those things are the norm. It's easy for those of us who were lucky enough to have stable childhoods and parents who valued education and societal norms to look at other through the prism of our experiences and ask why they are different to us. I'm not excusing it, just trying to provide a counterbalanced view.
Clamball said:
Other cultures and countries can do it, Ireland should as well. I think our political, moral & societal leaders should be pushing this agenda of responsible citizens who make life style and life changing decisions based on their ability to self fund these changes.
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What country doesn't have social problems similar to ours? They may deal with them aa bit better but plenty don't.

I'm against this proposed referendum, even in theory, as I think it's an utterly stupid idea.
 
Clamball said:
Very few people are born into homelessness. In a well ordered society parents should make good choices on having children who they are prepared to support into adulthood. There are always exceptions and sad cases and I am not covering them.
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There are plenty of hardworking people who cannot afford housing. Where exactly do you expect cleaners, shop workers, childminders, administrators, teachers etc to live? Should we all be childless to work and provide services in the cities for those who can afford high housing costs? Even adults without children cannot afford homes. I would love to know how people think our cities will run without some sort of housing assistance? Yes, the house social housing model / affordable housing model needs reform, but I’d love to know where you propose those on lower incomes live?

It is not just sad cases who cannot afford housing.
 
I would have thought that It all depends on what's contained in the wording of any referendum. Some in politics and media are creating the situation whereby everyone will be entitled to everything that they cannot afford, just because another family have it. We know for a fact that certain sections of society won't pay for anything, not a penny, as far as they're concerned they're entitled to it, and it's encouraged by some political parties. Dublin Co Council alone is getting no money from a huge proportion of its tenants, fairly sure it's the same around the country. Those very same parties may well be the next Goverment.
This housing commission? How did people get on it, who appointed them, who set it up, have the members got balanced opinion and is it allowed to make decisions?
 
Easter said:
There are plenty of hardworking people who cannot afford housing. Where exactly do you expect cleaners, shop workers, childminders, administrators, teachers etc to live? Should we all be childless to work and provide services in the cities for those who can afford high housing costs? Even adults without children cannot afford homes. I would love to know how people think our cities will run without some sort of housing assistance? Yes, the house social housing model / affordable housing model needs reform, but I’d love to know where you propose those on lower incomes live?

It is not just sad cases who cannot afford housing.
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I think you need to look at the social housing model that we currently have before placing additional burden on the workers (at what ever wage they earn).

We have council owned family homes with single occupancy, we have people not working living in prime locations in social housing that could be used to house those you identify above.

I am all for some form of equality (within reason) but the ability to purchase property is not as far out of reach of people as they claim. With a bit of foresight and savings even someone on a modest income working for a couple of years could save enough for a deposit.

People are paying rent above mortgage payments so they can afford mortgage payments but can't save the deposits. If they saved deposits prior to starting to rent they would be in a position to buy.
 
The Horseman said:
I think you need to look at the social housing model that we currently have before placing additional burden on the workers (at what ever wage they earn).

We have council owned family homes with single occupancy, we have people not working living in prime locations in social housing that could be used to house those you identify above.

I am all for some form of equality (within reason) but the ability to purchase property is not as far out of reach of people as they claim. With a bit of foresight and savings even someone on a modest income working for a couple of years could save enough for a deposit.

People are paying rent above mortgage payments so they can afford mortgage payments but can't save the deposits. If they saved deposits prior to starting to rent they would be in a position to buy.
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I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. However, on your last point about saving for deposits? Maybe they could and should, but it would mean the poor darlings won't be able to travel around the world for a few years after graduating. We can't have them not doing that, can we?
 
noproblem said:
I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. However, on your last point about saving for deposits? Maybe they could and should, but it would mean the poor darlings won't be able to travel around the world for a few years after graduating. We can't have them not doing that, can we?
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Life is about choices.
 
L
noproblem said:
However, on your last point about saving for deposits? Maybe they could and should, but it would mean the poor darlings won't be able to travel around the world for a few years after graduating. We can't have them not doing that, can we?
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That's a fairly generalised statement, most graduates I know and its quite a few are not travelling around the world but are actually doing post graduate degrees and working part time as apparently a degree nowadays doesn't mean very much.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
It will just lead to massive claims against the state when it's unable to provide everyone in the country with a house with 3 beds and gardens back and front in the area where they wish to live.

Brendan
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I think its ironic that those types of houses you describe litter our country and were built by government/local authorities money in the 50s, 60s 70s and 80s and huge populations of people continue to live in them , but most are now privately owned.

We could build these homes when the economy was in its infancy and not very big, now we have an economy and general wealth and we cant get anything built.

And a referendum will not build more houses.
 
Purple said:
That's easily said but plenty of children are born into dysfunctional families where addiction, functional illiteracy and crime and the trauma that goes with those things are the norm. It's easy for those of us who were lucky enough to have stable childhoods and parents who valued education and societal norms to look at other through the prism of our experiences and ask why they are different to us. I'm not excusing it, just trying to provide a counterbalanced view.

What country doesn't have social problems similar to ours? They may deal with them aa bit better but plenty don't.

I'm against this proposed referendum, even in theory, as I think it's an utterly stupid idea.
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I do agree with you purple. There is plenty of disfunction in our society but there are many safety nets in place, social housing, reform, addiction treatment, etc etc to try and deal with these issues.

The issue with housing currently is that we have higher demand than supply. Hopefully that will correct over the next decade or two but I don’t think it is right to call for a referendum on it.

While we are waiting for the housing stock to realign with demand I think we are better off spending our time in pushing an agenda of a more responsible society - people who think and plan before they leap into situations that may cause them and their family to experience housing issues. Bring some personal responsibility into it rather than blaming the government, or the builders, or the landlords, or the planners.
 
Easter said:
There are plenty of hardworking people who cannot afford housing. Where exactly do you expect cleaners, shop workers, childminders, administrators, teachers etc to live? Should we all be childless to work and provide services in the cities for those who can afford high housing costs? Even adults without children cannot afford homes. I would love to know how people think our cities will run without some sort of housing assistance? Yes, the house social housing model / affordable housing model needs reform, but I’d love to know where you propose those on lower incomes live?

It is not just sad cases who cannot afford housing.
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It is a very valid point Easter and one I probably do not have the answer to.

Should the answer be housing assistance or should we consider
1. A living wage, minimum to cover food housing transport etc. Insist employers pay staff sufficient for them to live in the area where they work
2. Mass transport to move workers from their homes to their job location
3. Mixed housing planning. No more estates of 3/4 bed semi-D with hundreds of identical houses for the “typical family”
4. More single occupancy units, high rise, greater density closer to work, inner city housing redevelopment. All done with planning, and tighter building regulations with greater inspection. No one wants to live in apartments with insufficient space, storage units, lack of communal areas, etc. but we tend to get these in Ireland.
5. Should people be provided social housing only on a temporary basis say max 5 years to ensure that the social housing stock is being turned over and that it does not fall into private ownership and that you don’t end up with a single person living in a social house suitable for a family of 6.
 
Paul O Mahoney said:
We could build these homes when the economy was in its infancy and not very big, now we have an economy and general wealth and we cant get anything built.
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People keep making that point but they ignore the massive cost to the rest of the economy and society for that house building up to the 70's. They also ignore the housing shortages that we faced at the time, the impact those building programs had on our health and education budgets and the fact that this country got poorer in real terms every year for the first 40 years after independence. It was only when we shifted our expenditure away from built capital and into human capital that we became rich.
We didn't have a housing shortage in the 80's because our population wasn't growing by much. It wasn't growing because 50,000-60,000 people were leaving the country each year. We could certainly build more houses like we did in the 50's and 60's but at what cost and do we want to build more vast council estates?
 
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