Should Turkey be allowed join the EU?

O

OhPinchy

Guest
Interested to hear views on this one, surprised it hasn't been discussed here already.

Turkey is a huge country with what I believe would be the largest population in the EU at around 65 million. This would give Turkey a very large say in European affairs. The fact that Turkey is overall a very poor country would impact greatly on the wealth of the EU. Things like the Common Agricultural Policy would be affected.

Then there is the issue of what Turkey is like as country. As someone with no religious allegiances or beliefs I couldn't care less what religion a person or country is. What I do care about is the impact that religion has on the country - I believe that all nations in the EU should be entirely secular and not allow religious beliefs to impact on civil liberties in any way. Which is why the fact that they were even considering making adultery a criminal offence worries me. I also read last week (In the times on saturday I think) that there is a very high level of wife-beating in Turkey.

All this makes me think of what Ireland was like when we joined the EU: we were a country where the Catholic Church had a large influence over a large amount of the population; we weren't known for our progressive tendencies; and we sure as hell weren't wealthy. 30 years later the church has no influence over public life (those who believe in what it preaches are free to attend and subscribe to those beliefs without influencing the lives of those who choose not to); we have become more progressive (e.g. availability of contraception, womens' rights etc.), though its true to say theres much room for improvement; and we are now a wealthy nation.

So, should we offer Turkey the oppurtunity to follow in our footsteps, or does the fact that Turkey's population is so much bigger than ours mean that their progress in the EU is not likely to be similar to our experience and so we should proceed with caution?
 
It's a tough question due to Turkey's human rights records. However, my gut feeling is yes...they should be allowed join the EU. It would force them to develop and keep in line with human rights issues etc...it might also help matters in the Middle East - with other Muslim nations seeing Turkey integrating with the West.

However, there are now at least three barriers to their entry. Firstly, a lot of European countries just won't/don't want them because they're a Muslim country.
Secondly, there's been mumblings recently in the US that they'd rather not see them join. Turkey is a key ally of the US and due to recent strained relations between the US and Europe over Iraq the US may prefer for Turkey to stay on the peripheral.
Thirdly, Turkey has been slightly put off by the ruling on the banning of headscarves in schools in France.
 
Catholic church influence

30 years later the church has no influence over public life
Click to expand...

Good post, OhPinchy, but I’d have to take issue with you on that point.

One of the reasons that I haven’t come back to live in Ireland is precisely because the RC church still has so much control.

In hospitals, the ultraconservative IMO coupled with the priests on the boards of management have managed to block most forms of birth control, and even emergency terminations in our wards. Even the naming of the majority of hospitals after so-called Saints illustrates just how pervasive the influence of the RC church is.

In education, the amount of time given over to Religious Education / Indoctrination at the expense of the taxpayer, again coupled with the presence of the local priesteen on the board of management, even on non-church schools again shows the power of the church to control minds at their formative stages.

In the media, the fact that the national State run broadcaster still stops broadcasting twice a day for a break for the Angelus puts us up there with such states as Saudi Arabia.

The Catholic church’s influence in this country is more subtle than it was twenty years ago, but its still as strong as it ever was. Ask any of the thousands of young girls who go to the UK for terminations each year.
 
Re: Catholic church influence

I'm not religious but am against abortion. So I can say the RC church doesn't influence my decisions.
Second Turkey joining EU is a difficult one.
A) It's not in Europe except for Istanbul on Continent of Europe.
B) The E.U's borders would be next to Iraq and Syria! Don't think that would work.
C) Terrible human rights and totally different secular history to Europe.
D) Maybe joining E.U would promote and maintain higher human rights and secularism.
E) U.S wants Turkey to join E.U to dilute E.U's growing common power of influence vis a vis U.S
F) Not a great history with Greece. Wouldn't be good if two E.U members went to war!
G) Would it be better for Turkey to look east and form a Muslim Union of the Middle East? Would they let Isreal join in that scenario? wouldn't think so (shoes on other foot then)
H) If they joined E.U it would help with Muslim integration with Christian majority and promote better relations(hasn't worked in France, Germany or Britain)

Anyone got better advantages for E,.U letting Turkey in?
Good question b.t.w
 
Re: Catholic church influence

Agree with most of Breeze's points...especially the abortion one.

U.S wants Turkey to join E.U to dilute E.U's growing common power of influence vis a vis U.S

That's true...although there is the camp (see my previous post) that believes (since Iraq) that Turkey would be better out of the EU (staying exclusively a US only ally).

Would it be better for Turkey to look east and form a Muslim Union of the Middle East?
Highly unlikely mind you.

I think because of these problems it's very, very unlikely that Turkey will join (at least not in our lifetime anyway).
 
Turkey

Totally against it.
Here's a country where, according to a BBC correspondent last night on the radio, they are currently looking at intoducing laws to make adultery illegal. (that would shut down temple bar overnight !!!!!). Now I knwo it's a minority govt. party thats discussing it, but the fact that it's been discussed at all shows the 'values' of Turkey.

Also, as someone said earlier, Turkey has borders with some serious nutcase neighbours. Would you be prepared to send Irish troops as part of an EU force to Turkey to defend EU borders ?????

And perhaps most importantly - I believe the EU to be a christian based community (my opinion...). I would'nt be confortable with a country like Turkey joining with such a huge muslim population.

My tuppence worth....
 
Ireland

"I also read last week (In the times on saturday I think) that there is a very high level of wife-beating"

- Bit like Ireland then...
 
EU

>I believe the EU to be a christian based community (my opinion...)


Just as well it's your opinion then...seeing as it's not.
 
Christianity and Turkey

As far as I remember history lessons Byzanz had the first Christian Pope,it was renamed to Constantinople after Pope Constantin.Today it is called Istanbul .And as far as I can remember as well it is Germany ( 85 million) with the largest population in the EU.Russia is the largest state in Europe-population wise,size wise.
Don't forget what our short EU history has taught us till now:Whenever there is a new member the standards of the members will be adjusted toward the average;if the EU accepts a new poor member it will effect us.And there are no "rich" candidates on the list.Turkey spends more than half of the states budget on the military,that is more than any other state of the world.Their inflation rate is somewhere between Israel and Burkina Faso.
 
Re: EU

One of the few things that has bound Europe - the whole continent from the Atlantic to the Eastern Med (including large parts of what is now Turkey) with anything remotely resembling unity over the last 1500 years has been Christianity.

Everything from the spread of Latin across the continent to the broad similarities of our justice systems based on Judeo Christian beliefs shows that the continent of Europe is founded, for better or worse, on Christianity. Now that doesn't mean that many Europeans have acted in a Christian way or that they still do. It's just an observable fact that outside of pockets of people of the Muslim faith in south eastern Europe (which are relatively recent changes) Christianity and all things attached to it has been the dominant force in shaping Europe.

This doesn't mean that this should/will always be the case and blocking Turkeys entry to the EU on the grounds of religion would be pretty ridiculous. But for Pogbh to continue to believe the fairy story that Europe and the EU is not based on Christian principles is ridiculous. Maybe it's a case of hoping that it wasn't?


In saying that Turkey still has some way to go on human rights etc before it should be allowed join.
 
Re: Catholic church influence

OConnorMurphy


Why don't you call a spade a spade and stop using fancy PC expressions. Call an abortion what it is and stop referring to it as a termination.

As far as I'm concerned you may stay where you are. I for one don't want you, or any of the abortion on demand lobby, living in this Country.




Murt
 
Christian Europe

Hi Max. Nice to see your comment "Christianity and all things attached to it has been the dominant force in shaping Europe."

I said the same on this BB many times and have been flamed mercilessly by some dimwits (like Pogbh).

Some people need to read more history.
 
The Pope rules OK !

Fair play to you Murt10 !

This country can do without all these liberals and freethinkers like that poor heathen. Let them not pollute our holy little Catholic Utopia. I’ll say a few decades for him.

I was thinking of a new song before my Presidential bid goes on again. Won’t you join me in song ?

Altogether now:
“There’s only One Virgin Mary ! There’s only one Virgin Ma-a-ary !”

I think it could be a winner.

God and Mary bless you all.
 
MaxKolbe03 ,good post.
I agree with you and I would also have serious concerns at the thoughts of a country joining the EU that has not been influenced by the age of enlightenment, the magna carta or the reformation and the protestant values that flowed from it and laid the groundwork that modern, secular, post Christian Europe was built on.

OConnorMurphy;
In hospitals, the ultraconservative IMO coupled with the priests on the boards of management have managed to block most forms of birth control
Click to expand...
Rubbish

Even the naming of the majority of hospitals after so-called Saints illustrates just how pervasive the influence of the RC church is.
Click to expand...
They are called after saints because they were built by the RC Church, so they can call them what they like!
 
Thanks purple,

Although for my part I don't see Europe as post-Christian. The Christian faith has a lot to offer Europe as a whole. At the very least an acknowledgment of the immense role it has had in shaping the continent (along with the sometimes less obvious role of other faiths) would provide the people of the EU with a common sense of history. The feeling we get from the EU constitution is that after the fall of Rome the people of Europe lived in caves and mooched around doing pretty much nothing until sometime around 1950.
 
Like most contributors to this debate I don't think Turkey should be allowed join the EU but my reasons wouldn't be the same.
The fact that Turkey shares a border with dubious states and that EU forces may have to be used to defend it is a dodgy argument. Since its conception the EU has had borders with (what were at the time) unstable and hostile regimes on the other side of the iron curtin. The EU has already had to intervene militarily in many non-eu countries although their record in being effective is pretty feeble. In fact Irish troops have been sent all over the world by the UN on peace keeping missions in areas far more unstable than Turkey.
Turkey is also an extremely secular state where despite the muslim majority the separation between church and state is something that this country has never achieved. Like the Ireland that some of us remember the Turkey that is looking to join the eu is a poor country with internal terrorism problems and some dubious practices and laws stemming from the influence of religious extremism. Like Ireland they too would need substantial eu investment to bring their economy up to speed and hopefully, also like Ireland, once up to speed their people would begin to live their lives in a manner that is guided less by religious prejudices and more by societal equality.
Joining the eu would by itself remove a lot of the problems that people have with Turkey as they would have to recognise european law and this alone would mean that many of their human rights abuses and laws such as the illegalistion of adultery would not be allowed.
However I would insist that for membership to be granted they must first meet certain requirements based on eu economic and legislative standards. They should sort out their human rights record and prove that they would be capable of abiding by the much more liberal laws laid down by the european parliament.
The fact that if they were granted membership they would be the largest eu nation and as such, by the proposed representation according to mass rules that the eu are looking to implement, would have the most members of parliament worries me. In my opinion representation in an organisation should be proportionate to whoever contributes most (and not just financial contribution).
But to say that Turkey shouldn't be allowed join the eu on the basis of the fact that it’s a not christianity based society is ludicrous. Since their inceptions the British, Irish, German French, Italian, Spanish (in fact most european countries) have been at each others throats in some form or another with diplomacy only being chosen by war by other means quite recently.
 
Very good post walter.

Without wanting to sound like I'm just agreeing with you (which irks some people) you've summed the situation up perfectly.

However I would insist that for membership to be granted they must first meet certain requirements based on eu economic and legislative standards. They should sort out their human rights record and prove that they would be capable of abiding by the much more liberal laws laid down by the european parliament.

I'd actually (in theory at least) be in favour of them joining because I believe it would then force them to sort out x, y and z...but the above is a very good point. Perhaps it would also have the effect of actually changing current member states minds on the subject, who presently would be completely against Turkey joining.

The fact that if they were granted membership they would be the largest eu nation and as such, by the proposed representation according to mass rules that the eu are looking to implement, would have the most members of parliament worries me

That's a good point and one I hadn't thought about. I'd imagine that's probably at the heart of why they would currently not be allowed join.

But to say that Turkey shouldn't be allowed join the eu on the basis of the fact that it’s a not christianity based society is ludicrous

Absolutely. Agree 100%.
 
Turkey

-The fact that if they were granted membership they would be the largest eu nation and as such, by the proposed representation according to mass rules that the eu are looking to implement, would have the most members of parliament worries me. In my opinion representation in an organisation should be proportionate to whoever contributes most (and not just financial contribution).-

You might not have a problem with Turkey, a Muslim country, joining the EU but many, many people would and thats their right.
What really bugs me about all of this is that we, the citizens of the EU, will not be asked directly on whether we want Turkey in. The madarins in Brussells will get them in under some existing legislation.
Brian Crowley MEP was on RTE saying last night that he would like Turkey to join - has he asked his constituents their thoughts on this? - the people whom he is supposed to represent. I doubt it very much!!!
And it's this style of 'steamrolling' in changes to the EU, that will make me vote NO in every type of EU referendum we have here from now on, even those that i might agree with.
The EU is moving too fast too soon for my liking. We're not been told what the true final goal is (I've even heard Morocco could be joining in the next 10 years!!!!). It seems to me that Germany & France are trying to build a world superpower to counteract Americas influence and that might not always be used for the best purposes....

As much as I hate to say it, we need a party here like the UKIP in Britain to break up the cosy consensus on all things European that exists in Irish politics.....
 
Re: Turkey

As much as I hate to say it, we need a party here like the UKIP in Britain to break up the cosy consensus on all things European that exists in Irish politics.....

You mean a bunch of homophobic racists with dodgy views on most subjects? some might argue that we already do...

What really bugs me about all of this is that we, the citizens of the EU, will not be asked directly on whether we want Turkey in.

Were the citizens of the existing countries asked to vote on whether Ireland should be allowed to join in 1972?
 
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