Because the unions would never allow it.
Should public sector workers pay more for their pensions?
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Thats what I thought. So for all the arguments saying that everyone has it wrong with regard to how good public pensions are compared to private sector, the real conclusive evidence can be found in the fact that the Unions would never agree to defined contribution pensions like seen in the private sector being introduced to replace the current pension scheme.
DrMoriarty
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Witness the mad stampede by the medical profession to get their hands on those cushy new public sector consultancies... 
Witness the mad stampede by the medical profession to get their hands on those cushy new public sector consultancies...
...rather than the ones "written in heaven" that they currently have?
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The ones that allow them to keep their private clients? Yep.
Unfortunately, public sector reforms/rationalisations of the kind described above by csirl seem to be confined mainly to the jobsworths. A very 'private sector' kind of mindset, non?
Unfortunately, public sector reforms/rationalisations of the kind described above by csirl seem to be confined mainly to the jobsworths. A very 'private sector' kind of mindset, non?
Thanks, CSirl and SadBob, for such informative posts re pensions in Public & Private Sectors and PRSI entitlements to State pensions - quite an eye-opener for myself as a post-1995 civil servant, with 6 years to go before my retirement at age 60.
Having had taken vol. redundancy after 24 years' service with a multinational, with my pension contribs 'frozen' till my retirement age of 60, I entered the Civil Service 10 years ago - i.e. - 1997. Therefore I've had and am still PRSI contributions since the commencement of my working life - this led me to assume that I'd be entitled to State Contrib. Pension at age 66. Now, after reading recent posts in this forum, that may not happen? Looks like it's time for me to seek out independent advice on pensions if such a thing exists...!
allendog
Having had taken vol. redundancy after 24 years' service with a multinational, with my pension contribs 'frozen' till my retirement age of 60, I entered the Civil Service 10 years ago - i.e. - 1997. Therefore I've had and am still PRSI contributions since the commencement of my working life - this led me to assume that I'd be entitled to State Contrib. Pension at age 66. Now, after reading recent posts in this forum, that may not happen? Looks like it's time for me to seek out independent advice on pensions if such a thing exists...!
allendog
Them's the ones.
Not sure what you mean by that DrM, can you explicate?
To be honest I missed the second part of csirl's last post (or he edited it). It sounds like a real change for the better and is to be welcomed.
DrMoriarty
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I guess I was acknowledging that disproportionate privileges tend to obtain in the higher ranks of any professions/large organisations, public or private, because of the power of vested interest. The privileges enjoyed by hospital consultants accrue not from their public sector pension schemes but from the extremely advantageous conditions of their employment, notably the fact that they are allowed to maintain lucrative private practices alongside (and often to the detriment of) their public sector contractual duties. I can't think of any other kind of public sector contract that is comparable in that respect.
I'm open to correction, but I'd imagine that for the top earners in that profession, the public sector pension in itself forms a very small part of their income/net worth after retirement. However that's quite a separate matter from the pros and cons of your average civil servant's pension entitlements vs the options available to those employed in the private sector...
I'm open to correction, but I'd imagine that for the top earners in that profession, the public sector pension in itself forms a very small part of their income/net worth after retirement. However that's quite a separate matter from the pros and cons of your average civil servant's pension entitlements vs the options available to those employed in the private sector...
Or because the unions dont understand.
My experience is that public sector union officials are very ill informed on pension matters and always adopt a "dont change the current scheme" attitude to proposals to change pension schemes (even when they are beneficial to their members) because they simply dont understand the implications of any proposed changes.
In general terms, the pensions of management level civil servants and political appointees are generally better than private sector. Pensions of low paid clerical and industrial grades are worse than private sector due to them being reduced by the contributory OAP.
P.S. If you check with the actuaries who do the pension calculations for the Department of Finance, they'll tell you that the average civil servant lives for only 2 years after retirement. Theories are that they become too institutionalised and cant cope with the real world when they retire or the sedentiary lifestyle - sitting on chair all day with no exercise - causes heart attacks and strokes.
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Some of us have problems while still in service!
Are you sure about this? As an example, my (private sector) pension is 2/3rds final salary minus the state pension.
Also, I recieve increments of 4% or CPI, whichever is lower, and this is not guaranteed, it's ultimately at the discretion of the scheme trustees.
Whereas your public servant's pension is of course linked to wage increases. If we are equal at retirement, after 20 years your pension will be 50% higher than mine if wages grow 2% above inflation, which is hardly unrealistic.
Allendog,
If you pay Class A PRSI (which you should do) and you satisfy the Social Welfare requirements you will be entitled to the OAP on reaching 66 regardless of being a Civil Servant or not. For a post 95 Established Civil Servant (being one myself) we pay into 3 pension schemes as follows
1.5% of Gross into Spouse & Children's Scheme
1.5% of Gross into Lump Sum
3.5% of what's called Net into your normal pension (Net is calculated as your gross pensionable pay less twice the Old Age Pension if paid weekly or less 4 times the Old Age Pension if paid fortnightly - this deduction is why we get the OAP)
If you have 40 years service your pension will be 50% of final salary only when you reach 66 as the 50% is made up of your CS pension contributions (the 3.5% calculation) and the Old Age Pension.
So effectively if a Post 95 Civil Servant has a full 40 years at 60 they will not get their full pension until they reach 66 as the 50% includes the OAP (you may be entitled to a Social Welfare Retirement Pension at 65 however) – you will only receive the pension that relates to the 3.5% contribution from 60 - 66 (plus your lump sum at 60 too).
This differs quite considerably from pre 95 Civil Servants in so far as if they have 40 years when reaching 60 they will receive their full 50% at 60 because they are not relying on the OAP to bring it up. This is by far a more favourable pension scheme to be in (the lucky sods ) as it is non-contributory aswell – no wonder it was changed in 95 as I would imagine if it was to continue the country would buckle under pension payouts in years to come!
Post 95 Civil Servants do get paid on a higher pay-scale of 20/19ths of the corresponding pre 95 scale but I'd still take the pre 95 deal any day if I could!!!!
I'm still very happy with my post 95 CS pension though compared to a private one – if I ever get to draw it down that is!!
To Csirl – we're only required to work 34.75 hours per week! That leaves nearly 80% of the week to get up and out there and help prevent those strokes and heart attacks !
If you pay Class A PRSI (which you should do) and you satisfy the Social Welfare requirements you will be entitled to the OAP on reaching 66 regardless of being a Civil Servant or not. For a post 95 Established Civil Servant (being one myself) we pay into 3 pension schemes as follows
1.5% of Gross into Spouse & Children's Scheme
1.5% of Gross into Lump Sum
3.5% of what's called Net into your normal pension (Net is calculated as your gross pensionable pay less twice the Old Age Pension if paid weekly or less 4 times the Old Age Pension if paid fortnightly - this deduction is why we get the OAP)
If you have 40 years service your pension will be 50% of final salary only when you reach 66 as the 50% is made up of your CS pension contributions (the 3.5% calculation) and the Old Age Pension.
So effectively if a Post 95 Civil Servant has a full 40 years at 60 they will not get their full pension until they reach 66 as the 50% includes the OAP (you may be entitled to a Social Welfare Retirement Pension at 65 however) – you will only receive the pension that relates to the 3.5% contribution from 60 - 66 (plus your lump sum at 60 too).
This differs quite considerably from pre 95 Civil Servants in so far as if they have 40 years when reaching 60 they will receive their full 50% at 60 because they are not relying on the OAP to bring it up. This is by far a more favourable pension scheme to be in (the lucky sods
) as it is non-contributory aswell – no wonder it was changed in 95 as I would imagine if it was to continue the country would buckle under pension payouts in years to come!Post 95 Civil Servants do get paid on a higher pay-scale of 20/19ths of the corresponding pre 95 scale but I'd still take the pre 95 deal any day if I could!!!!
I'm still very happy with my post 95 CS pension though compared to a private one – if I ever get to draw it down that is!!
To Csirl – we're only required to work 34.75 hours per week! That leaves nearly 80% of the week to get up and out there and help prevent those strokes and heart attacks
! Really! That's sweet. What sort of holidays/paid sick leave do you get?Allendog,
To Csirl – we're only required to work 34.75 hours per week! That leaves nearly 80% of the week to get up and out there and help prevent those strokes and heart attacks
Purple,
You're right, it sure is sweet! It's based on a 9.15 - 5.30 Monday –Thurs and 9.15 - 5.15 on a Fri which equates to 6 hours 57mins a day or 34.75hrs per week. If you're lucky enough to be in a Department with Flexi Time your day can start between 8am and 10am and finish between 4pm and 7pm if you want, depending on workloads/staff cover of the section etc.
It is a great job, and career if you want it to be, if you get in and get on with your work - decentralisation etc aside. There are the obvious bureaucrats around the place too but this is a minor down side (for me any way) and I have yet to find someone who has the perfect job! We always get paid, get our holidays, get pay increases, health and safety is excellent too etc, etc. Plus that great pension aswell!! I hate to see other Civil Servants moaning about the place but I think it's the case of 'the grass is always greener'.
To get back to your original question, my grade gets 22 days annual leave a year (I can also work up an additional 19.5 days flexi per year – these are worked up at a 1.5 days in a 4-week period and which have to be taken in the next 4-week period). We also get all the bank holidays including good friday and an extra day at Easter and one at Christmas. In relation to sick pay, Established Civil Servants are entitled to 6 months on full pay followed by 6 months on half pay in any 4-year period for certified sick leave.
Sadbob
You're right, it sure is sweet! It's based on a 9.15 - 5.30 Monday –Thurs and 9.15 - 5.15 on a Fri which equates to 6 hours 57mins a day or 34.75hrs per week. If you're lucky enough to be in a Department with Flexi Time your day can start between 8am and 10am and finish between 4pm and 7pm if you want, depending on workloads/staff cover of the section etc.
It is a great job, and career if you want it to be, if you get in and get on with your work - decentralisation etc aside. There are the obvious bureaucrats around the place too but this is a minor down side (for me any way) and I have yet to find someone who has the perfect job! We always get paid, get our holidays, get pay increases, health and safety is excellent too etc, etc. Plus that great pension aswell!! I hate to see other Civil Servants moaning about the place but I think it's the case of 'the grass is always greener'.
To get back to your original question, my grade gets 22 days annual leave a year (I can also work up an additional 19.5 days flexi per year – these are worked up at a 1.5 days in a 4-week period and which have to be taken in the next 4-week period). We also get all the bank holidays including good friday and an extra day at Easter and one at Christmas. In relation to sick pay, Established Civil Servants are entitled to 6 months on full pay followed by 6 months on half pay in any 4-year period for certified sick leave.
Sadbob
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SadBob,
Yes its a good job and don't be afraid to admit it unlike the other moaners and whingers.
And these are usually the clock watchers who retire but don't leave the job and demoralise others who want a career.
Good Luck in you career, remember the Civil Service is a big organisation and keep a look out for better and more interesting positions within it.
(And do some night courses)
C:
Yes its a good job and don't be afraid to admit it unlike the other moaners and whingers.
And these are usually the clock watchers who retire but don't leave the job and demoralise others who want a career.
Good Luck in you career, remember the Civil Service is a big organisation and keep a look out for better and more interesting positions within it.
(And do some night courses)
C:
Clerical grade civil servants have set working hours - 39hrs per week gross which is equal to 34.75hrs of clocked in work when mandatory Organisation of Working Time Act breaks are factored in. Core hours are 9:30 to 5:30 Monday to Thursday and 9:30 to 5:15 on Fridays. They can generally avail of flexitime - work extra hours some days and get time off in lieu.
Office holders in the civil service (mostly middle management) do not have set hours - they are liable to work 7 days a week if necessary and dont get any overtime for late work - most would work well in excess of 40hrs week. Also dont have flexitime and Working Time Act is out the window in terms of breaks - no Government Dept is ever going to be prosecuted by their colleagues in Enterprise Trade & Employment.
Office holders in the civil service (mostly middle management) do not have set hours - they are liable to work 7 days a week if necessary and dont get any overtime for late work - most would work well in excess of 40hrs week. Also dont have flexitime and Working Time Act is out the window in terms of breaks - no Government Dept is ever going to be prosecuted by their colleagues in Enterprise Trade & Employment.
Csirl,
While this thread seems to be getting off the original topic, I just want to let you know that, depending on what Department/section you work in, Flexi Time can be made available up to the Assistant Principal Grade and overtime is payable up to the Higher Executive Officer Grade which is considerded a middle managment grade. Civil Servants are employed for what is known as a 41 hour conditioned week up to Principal Officer level (9.15-5.30 & 9.15-5.15 on a Friday with 1.25 hrs for lunch). Above that (Assistant Secretary/Secretary General etc) the recruitment is slightly different so I'm not sure - I would imagine its not too different in theory but when you get to level you're really dedicated to the cause!! Office Holders are Ministers, Ministers of State etc. and that's a whole different ball game!
While this thread seems to be getting off the original topic, I just want to let you know that, depending on what Department/section you work in, Flexi Time can be made available up to the Assistant Principal Grade and overtime is payable up to the Higher Executive Officer Grade which is considerded a middle managment grade. Civil Servants are employed for what is known as a 41 hour conditioned week up to Principal Officer level (9.15-5.30 & 9.15-5.15 on a Friday with 1.25 hrs for lunch). Above that (Assistant Secretary/Secretary General etc) the recruitment is slightly different so I'm not sure - I would imagine its not too different in theory but when you get to level you're really dedicated to the cause!! Office Holders are Ministers, Ministers of State etc. and that's a whole different ball game!
I admire your honesty and your well balanced apprasal. Good luck with the future.
csirl, I don't know anyone working in a SME that has ever taken the Working time act into account. It is years since I worked less than 48 hours in a week, most weeks it’s between 60 and 70. I start at 7.30 and finish no earlier than 6.30 with 20-30 minutes for lunch. I am also very well paid and like my job so I'm not complaining. My point is that in a small private business everyone works long and hard and had no real job security, no DB pension, no paid sick leave, legal minimum annual leave so it's understandable that they look at what they see as the greener grass on the public sector/ civil service side of the hill. Someone in you position can drop their kids to school on their way into work; mine are often asleep when I leave the house in the morning (and when I get in at night). Looking at the overall package I don’t think that civil servants in general get a bad deal. In fact I think they get a good one. It’s very hard for someone in a very exposed sector of the economy to listen to a civil servant give out about how hard they have it.
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I haven't heard anyone 'giving out' about how hard civil servants have it — just correcting a few common misconceptions.