Should people with 75 previous convictions ever be let out of prison again.

[johnd]

Sorry for the sarcasm, cheapest form of wit and all that.

Just pointing out that it is very easy for an underclass kid to accumulate convictions but seemingly impossible to bring to book those who have committed economic treason on a whole nation, and by the way creamed a few 10s of millions for themselves and their families.:mad:

The problem obviously lies with the Garda and the DPP for refusing to take cases against white collar crime and with judges for refusing to imprison those found guilty of such crimes. Or are you suggesting that they, the garda and DPP, have been warned off by their political masters? While I accept that judges and the DPP share the same background as those involved in the banking scandals I hardly think the same applies to your average garda

 

[UFC]

Probably loads of reasons:

Terrible parents
Poor genetics
Possibly some sort of brain damage from fetal alcohol syndrome or some such thing
Laziness
Bad attitude
Mental illness
Complete lack of education
etc., etc. ...

Regardless, the fact of the matter is they are now pure scum and really should have no place in our society. As adults they understand they are doing wrong.

So out of the seven possible causes you list, five were things that these individuals have/had no control over. And the other two (laziness and bad attitude) are almost certainly related to the other five. You expect people who are mentally ill, and/or intellectually disabled and/or uneducated to have the same understanding of right and wrong as you. So these people were unlucky enough to be born into a very difficult environment, and your response is to 'put them down'.

Nice values.

I understand you're just playing devil's advocate (you're not really trying to justify the actions of a serial criminal) so I'll play along.

I disagree agree with your point.

Reason 1:

Many of us have had a hard upbringing or have some sort of disadvantage but haven't turned out to be a scumbag.

Reason 2:

You seem to think someone else is responsible for how educated we are. As adults we can all choose to get educated. It's called personal responsibility.

Reason 3:

There is no such thing as an innocent recidivist. They may have disadvantages (e.g. poor genetics) but the fact of the matter is they are choosing to commit crimes.

As someone who grew up with a lot of petty criminals I can tell you they were all super conscious of what they were doing (and I will classify some of them as having mental illnesses and bad genetics, etc.) It's basic badness.

 

[Complainer]

It's basic badness.

Any idea why a much larger proportion of people with this 'basic badness' come from socially deprived areas, than other areas?

 

[UFC]

Any idea why a much larger proportion of people with this 'basic badness' come from socially deprived areas, than other areas?

Angry at the world?

 

[Complainer]

They're is a lot of angry people out there at the moment, but most of them aren't committing serious crimes. Try again.

 

[UFC]

They're is a lot of angry people out there at the moment, but most of them aren't committing serious crimes. Try again.

Why are you trying to fight with a stranger online...? Come on, surely you have better things to be doing with your time. I know I do.

I agree there are a lot of angry people in the world, but some people are angrier than others. Growing up in relative poverty with bad parents and perhaps a lack of education which results in limited options probably causes a bit more anger than the average middle class life.

 

[MrMan]

They're is a lot of angry people out there at the moment, but most of them aren't committing serious crimes. Try again.

It sounds like you have the answer to this one so why not share it?

A persons background does have an impact on their life, but that doesn't deflect from the need to deal with the ruthless breed of young criminal on the street today. They need to face hard serious consequences because most of these lads are not for turning when it comes to rehabilitation.

 

[csirl]

I've no problem with making people accountable for their actions. Crime is crime.

However, if we ever want to break out of this vicious cycle of crime in socially deprived areas, we need to address the causes.

One way of breaking the cycle of crime is to have all the criminals locked up. This may seem a bit simplistic, but if they're locked up, they cant have children, so there's no next generation.

 

[mathepac]

... They need to face hard serious consequences because most of these lads are not for turning when it comes to rehabilitation.

Can you identify some of the rehabilitation programmes / initiatives available to young offenders from the time they enter the penal / criminal justice system?

 

[truthseeker]

Any idea why a much larger proportion of people with this 'basic badness' come from socially deprived areas, than other areas?

A number of reasons - no easy answer here. But I would think that a different value system is a large part of it. Children pick up their value system from their peers (and their parents, but their peers play a larger part), so if a child is in an environment where breaking the law is the norm (or at least not a hugely shocking thing) then he or she is far more likely to think its ok to do so as well. Thats just my opinion btw.

 

[Firefly]

...Children pick up their value system from their peers (and their parents, but their peers play a larger part), so if a child is in an environment where breaking the law is the norm...

I walk past the Cork circuit court regularly and often see these young thugs hanging around outside having the craic. Almost like a badge of honour thing. I can't help but feeling that a year or 2 of hard labour somewhere (Spike Island perhaps) would sort a few of them out.

 

[censuspro]

Can you identify some of the rehabilitation programmes / initiatives available to young offenders from the time they enter the penal / criminal justice system?

Should we not lock up young offenders because there's no rehab programmes in prison?

 

[Complainer]

Growing up in relative poverty with bad parents and perhaps a lack of education which results in limited options probably causes a bit more anger than the average middle class life.

A number of reasons - no easy answer here. But I would think that a different value system is a large part of it. Children pick up their value system from their peers (and their parents, but their peers play a larger part), so if a child is in an environment where breaking the law is the norm (or at least not a hugely shocking thing) then he or she is far more likely to think its ok to do so as well. Thats just my opinion btw.

Now we're starting to get somewhere.

One way of breaking the cycle of crime is to have all the criminals locked up. This may seem a bit simplistic, but if they're locked up, they cant have children, so there's no next generation.

This simply creates a vacuum for the next generation of criminals to prosper.

I walk past the Cork circuit court regularly and often see these young thugs hanging around outside having the craic. Almost like a badge of honour thing. I can't help but feeling that a year or 2 of hard labour somewhere (Spike Island perhaps) would sort a few of them out.

Has this 'hard labour' approach worked anywhere else? Thatcher tried the 'short sharp shock' treatment in the UK at one stage, and they gave up after a year or two - it was a waste of time.

It sounds like you have the answer to this one so why not share it?

A persons background does have an impact on their life, but that doesn't deflect from the need to deal with the ruthless breed of young criminal on the street today. They need to face hard serious consequences because most of these lads are not for turning when it comes to rehabilitation.

It sounds like you have the answer to this one so why not share it?

Wish I did - I do believe that creating a more equal society is the way to go. There is pretty good research showing a strong correlation between low income inequality and low crime rates. See
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]

 

[redbhoy]

Poverty might be an excuse in some cases but you can be sure that the majority of crime is not caused by poverty. I see scumbags from my own area up to no good all the time and its not down to poverty. These people have it better than most. They're homes are paid for by the taxpayer, as is their dole money. They have more or less €200 as disposable income. So poverty is far from the root cause here as they are better off than most who go out and earn their living.
Education could be a factor. They know no better? They cant see anything other than whats around them. The local hardman is their hero as they dont see much of their parents be it because of both working or both drinking/doing drugs. It was probably a blessing that my old man was out of work for periods during my youth and that enabled him to keep a tighter leash on us. Its funny that he was able to point out who was going to go down the 'wrong road' and he wasnt far wrong.
I come from a so called disadvantaged area where everyone is more or less in the same boat. Out of a class of 30 odd kids in primary school my classmates have gone off in various directions. Some work in run of the mill jobs, some are tradesmen, a few run their own businesses, theres an executive in a software company, drug dealer, whino etc.
I did notice that some classes from that school would have far more scumbags in them than others.
There are many factors involved but Id say the immediate surroundings of a person is what would dictate their behaviour in society.

 

[Caveat]

Far from a proper explanation or the whole picture, but planning has a lot to answer for. 'Problem' areas - usually sprawling esates - very easily become ghettoised and a result of this is often a distorted view of reality. The estates become a microcosm of society. The inhabitants can see themselves as looking out for themselves because no-one else will. Cutting corners to get by can easily cross over into the fringes of criminality and beyond. The esates are often practically unpoliced too.

If Jimmy is supplying imported fags at €5 a pack to his neighbours and Johnny is selling stuff out of the back of his van, and everyone thinks fair play to Deco's dad for hospitalising yer man as he was 'a scumbag anyway', and if many people are happy enough with this kind of set up in the estate - as they often are - then lawbreaking can very easily become accepted as a normal way of life.

The above maybe sounds patronising but I have had plenty of experience of this.

 

[csirl]

Has this 'hard labour' approach worked anywhere else? Thatcher tried the 'short sharp shock' treatment in the UK at one stage, and they gave up after a year or two - it was a waste of time.

The problem with short sharp shock was that it was too short. Criminals just toughed it out for a few weeks and got released.

When people talk of hard labour, they usually think about prisoners breaking rocks for no reason.

However, if a criminal learns how to get up early in the morning and do a full days meaningful work, then you have provided him with a realistic alternative to crime. It's all about forming new habits. Many young criminals have never done a ful days work and do not believe they are capable of doing one. It would be great if all our criminals left prison with respect for authority, some self discipline and able to do a hard days work.

 

[csirl]

The esates are often practically unpoliced too.

I dont buy the unpoliced line as an excuse for bad behaviour. In the vast majority of housing estates in this country, a Garda on patrol is a very rare sight. In fact, when travelling around Dublin, one of the signs that you are in a bad area is that you frequently meet patrol cars and vans when driving around.

 

[censuspro]

Has this 'hard labour' approach worked anywhere else? Thatcher tried the 'short sharp shock' treatment in the UK at one stage, and they gave up after a year or two - it was a waste of time.

How would you determine if a method has "worked"?

 

[Sunny]

How would you determine if a method has "worked"?

How many have then gone on and re-offended?

 

[MANTO]

IMO there are 2 key aspects: (out of may other variables).

1: Education

Kids should be taught the correct values from an early age in school. IMO schools should have lessons built into the curriculum teaching kids the impact of crime on society and how it impacts on their lives.



2: Policing

As said above, a lot of these disadvantaged areas are barely policed, if policed at all. We need a bigger Garda presence on our streets but this has been discussed time and time again. IMO it will never happen.